Bench Restrictions

[Slippery Fish]

Hey all! This is an area of the craft that I can tell I still need development in, so I'm going to post a couple of scenarios I had this weekend and hopefully get your feedback on how I can improve. I tried to relay as much as I can remember as accurately as I can, but I understand much of this may be HTBT.

Context: 11U, USSSA Rules but not a USSSA sanctioned tournament.

Situation 1: I have a HT head coach who throughout the game is barking at me about my strike zone. "C'mon blue", "It's 11U", "that's a strike", "where was that?" etc. Had one call where a kid showed bunt but didn't offer. Coach asks for my ruling and I say ball b/c there was no offer, and he responds with "Well, I disagree" to which I respond "ok?" and throw up my hands and move on with the game. Later in game he is 3BC and I ring up a kid for what I thought was strike 3. HT fans and coaches go ballistic telling me it's strike 2. I have enough doubt that I try to appeal to my partner to see what he has for a count but can't get his attention (or at least can't get the message across). So, I start to walk towards my partner in A and the coach (3BC) is barking at me. Did a lot of games this weekend so I don't remember the exact dialouge, but the tone was more in line with "C'mon, that's terrible, clean that up" vs. "Hey, I've only got two strikes, can you check with your partner or the scorebook", but it was not personal or profane. I turn around, put my hand up and yell, "that's enough", then turn around to keep walking. He keeps barking, so I turn around and say "coach, this is your official warning, you are restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game." I turn back around and hear someone yell "Then don't suck". I flipped back around kind of shocked, but am nearly certain that that comment came from one of the dads hanging out near the 3rd base dugout and not the coach. I confer with my partner, correct the count to 2 strikes and move on with the game. No further chirping from that coach or his assistants the rest of the game. I had a couple other of their games that weekend and didn't have any more glaring issues.

Situation 2: Championship game, had several close calls, but I have 1 safe call on a steal of 2nd in particular that the visiting team (on defense) took hearty offense to. It was bang-bang and I had a good angle on it so I just ignore it and move on. Later that inning, I don't remember the exact situation but I know I was in C. The ball is put into play and culminates (or so I think) with a play on the runner at home that is close but the catcher drops the ball. After he scrambles to grab the ball he makes a snap throw to 3rd to catch a greedy runner. I am a little caught off gaurd and make a snap safe call. If I had paused for an extra moment I think there's a good chance I'd have an out. If There were already 2 outs, so all 4 visiting coaches are going apapleptic and yelling at me, and I ignore most of it but one of the assistants catches my attention and says "You're not a very good umpire" I yell "that's enough, you're restricted to the dugout" which I instantly regretted because he wasn't even a base coach, so he wasn't leaving the dugout anyway. Head coach calmly enough asks for an appeal, and my partner and I confer and he has no information to overturn my call so we stick with safe. No further electable issues but the game winds up going into extra innings and the visitors lose by 1 in the bottom of the 8th. I left the field immediately after the game through the home team dugout to avoid any issues.

Obviously I made some mistakes on the field that didn't help my case, so I know I have those to clean up, but I'd appreciate any feedback on the rest of my game management approach. Thanks!   

[SH0102]

It’s 11u, the on field stuff will come with experience, bc you clearly want to learn and get better so you will, so forget the possible missed calls.

”Cmon that’s terrible, clean that up”, is personal.  People have this notion if they don’t use the word “you” then they can say what they want.  If it isn’t personal what is he saying is terrible? Who is he saying needs to clean up?  Not saying that’s an auto eject, but change the mindset he can say that bc he didn’t say “you”.

Asst coaches get very little rope, and “you’re not a good umpire” is ejectable, no matter who said it, especially an asst, lose him.

you can not get help on safe/out so don’t entertain it. Only way that can be flipped is if you missed something like the ball was on the ground, or on a force the fielder wasn’t on the base.  Purely who beat who (runner vs tag/ball) is not to be consulted unless you have video replay and challenges .

thanks for being an umpire, keep at it

Edit: The purpose of our actions and “punishments” is to get control of the game and situations.  If you restricted HC and had no other issues, then you don’t need to question if you handled it properly.  The asst coach however…even if no further issues happened, that’s one you regret not dumping him bc he’ll do that to the next umpire too, or you again, believing at worst he will be warned or restricted to where he already is

[Richvee]

8 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

I have a HT head coach who throughout the game is barking at me about my strike zone.

Stop this early. Ignore, acknowledge, warn, eject. Don't put up with ball strike barking all game. 

11 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

"coach, this is your official warning, you are restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game."

 

11 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

No further chirping from that coach or his assistants the rest of the game

Lesson learned? "Kill one monkey the rest will fall in line."

13 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

the assistants catches my attention and says "You're not a very good umpire" I yell "that's enough, you're restricted to the dugout"

Don't even talk with ASSistants. Assistant is barking, approach the head coach. Calmly, quietly one on one  explain to the HC "Coach you need to take care of your coach's behavior.. If there's any further issues he will be ejected and you will be restricted to the dugout. 

Personal sidenote: Don't do 4-5-6-7 games a day. With exception of VERY VERY few, no one is good after 3, maybe 4 games. You mind drifts, you're legs are feeling it, you can't get the jumps to the correct angles/spots that you got 8 hours ago, you're not tracking pitches like you were in game 1, you start losing the count. you're caught off guard by pick offs, and follow up plays (as you attest to).

Reps are good for learning and experience, just not all in one weekend. 

[834k3r]

59 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Personal sidenote: Don't do 4-5-6-7 games a day. With exception of VERY VERY few, no one is good after 3, maybe 4 games. You mind drifts, you're legs are feeling it, you can't get the jumps to the correct angles/spots that you got 8 hours ago, you're not tracking pitches like you were in game 1, you start losing the count. you're caught off guard by pick offs, and follow up plays (as you attest to).

Reps are good for learning and experience, just not all in one weekend. 

This, right here.

I once did a 10U tournament solo where I worked 4 games. The 4th game was ugly and certainly something I wish I could take back. Even now, several years later, I am mentally drained after 3 games from being switched on the entire time.

There are some umpires here (and everywhere) that can handle more than 3 games, but I find those people are few and far between--and have higher levels of experience than me.

[BLarson]

If it's USSSA, you don't really need to restrict.

Like @Richvee said...Ignore, acknowledge, warn, eject.

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

@Slippery Fish you have to ask yourself...What kind of umpire do I want to be? What kind of reputation do I want my umpire brothers, my assignors, and the coaches and players on my fields to have for me? It's going to take YEARS and HUNDREDS of games to get there but, you HAVE to have a DESTINATION or a GOAL on this.

Meditate and think on this solo in your free time away from the ballpark. What are you going to tolerate on your ballfield? Think about being in a restaurant or public place with minors present and how you would react if someone started doing and saying some of the things we hear and see on a ballfield. (lol...you can't warn or eject people in public places but, would you address it? How would you address it?) Know the culture and rules of the leagues and umpire association(s) you work for. Talk with your local umpire brothers and crew partners about game management.

Without seeing you work and the situations you're dealing with, the number one piece of advice I can give you is...if you hear or see something that is personal, prolonged or profane? Address it and address it immediately. If you let coaches or players go on "throughout the game" as you described above, it becomes more and more difficult to regain authoritative control. It's been my experience that on the FIRST instance when I hear or see something and I give them the stop sign with my hand and say simply, "That's enough of that, please..." or "Let's not have anymore of that, please..." in 90% of cases, I don't hear another thing the rest of the game. In closing remember the old saying, it's old for a reason...What we permit, we promote. And if you had game management concerns during your game, either ones you addressed or didn't address, talk them over in your post-games with your partner. It takes time, brother...you got this and we're all here with you.

~Dawg

[dumbdumb]

is this not the point where all the ex or current, disciples of Verbal Judo put in a plug, or have they all passed on to that big castle/mansion in the sky.

[Slippery Fish]

Thank you all for your feedback, this has given me lots of good things to think about this week! I can't tell you how greatful I am for your responses. Certainly trying to become a better umpire little by little. I definitely need to get better about owning calls that are mine, and taking on less games in a weekend is something I'm strongly considering. 

On 6/11/2024 at 12:46 PM, Richvee said:

Lesson learned? "Kill one monkey the rest will fall in line."

This is something I see people say all the time, but to be honest during the moment it often feels like the opposite is true. It seems like in the situations where the coaches are the most fired up, all of the coaches and all of the parents are bearing down on you, and it feels like ejecting somebody in the heat of that moment would be like throwing a firecracker into a fire. Is there any validity to that, or am I just paranoid?

On 6/11/2024 at 12:46 PM, Richvee said:

Don't even talk with ASSistants. Assistant is barking, approach the head coach. Calmly, quietly one on one  explain to the HC "Coach you need to take care of your coach's behavior.. If there's any further issues he will be ejected and you will be restricted to the dugout. 

I don't know this for sure, but just from reading this site it seems like the short leash on ACs is much more ingrained into the culture of HS ball and higher than youth ball. In a situation like this, would you call time and walk over to the HC to address something like this? I try not to stop the game or yell across the field if I don't have to, but if it would improve my game management I am willing to adapt. 

 

After reading the responses to this question, I think I may be letting coaches have too much leash when it comes to comments about my strike zone. One big challenge for me is that the complaints usually aren't directly at me ("that's a terrible call, blue"), but more subtle.

One thing I get a lot is coaches asking "where was that?" about a pitch that they didn't like. I usually answer them, but there are definitely times where it feels like this gets out of hand. Do you guys usually answer coaches when they ask that? Or do you ignore it or give another response?

The other challenging thing for me is that often it seems like coaches will usually make their displeasure known by talking to their players and saying things like "that's a good pitch little Jimmy," or "Hey, that's not you batter." Obviously sometimes they're encouraging their pitcher or batter, but you can tell by a coaches tone when he's just complaining about the strike zone while trying to keep plausible deniability and putting the umpire in the position of looking like the aggressor if he addresses it. Any advice on that?

[Richvee]

11 hours ago, Slippery Fish said:

situations where the coaches are the most fired up, all of the coaches and all of the parents are bearing down on you, and it feels like ejecting somebody in the heat of that moment would be like throwing a firecracker into a fire. Is there any validity to that, or am I just paranoid?

My experience. (Which is actually very minimal when it comes to ejections given I’ve been at this almost 15 years). After an EJ, you may hear the obligatory comments from the parents “Feel better now, blue?” “ Bad day at work , Blue?”   That will dissipate quickly. I have found the bench will shut up. They know you’re not putting up with any more BS and they don’t want to be next. 
 

 

11 hours ago, Slippery Fish said:

In a situation like this, would you call time and walk over to the HC to address something like this?

Yes. Keep calm. Resist the urge to yell at anyone across the field. Let’s say 1b coach is giving you crap, and head coach is on the 3b box. Just call time. Walk towards HC (no need to look at or even acknowledge 1BC.) calmly explain you’re not going to listen to the 1BC all day and that he needs to address it, or he’s not going to be around much longer. (If it’s FED rules, HC can be restricted and/ or ejected as well.) Then let him know if there’s any specific questions, you’ll  be happy to discuss them rationally with him and him only. 
 

 

11 hours ago, Slippery Fish said:

The other challenging thing for me is that often it seems like coaches will usually make their displeasure known by talking to their players and saying things like "that's a good pitch little Jimmy," or "Hey, that's not you batter." Obviously sometimes they're encouraging their pitcher or batter, but you can tell by a coaches tone when he's just complaining about the strike zone while trying to keep plausible deniability and putting the umpire in the position of looking like the aggressor if he addresses it. Any advice on that?

There’s several ways to address this. First and foremost, (this will come with experience) be confident in your zone. If they’re asking the catcher where it is, hopefully the catcher is smart enough to tell him the truth. If not, maybe tell your F2 “hey Jimmy, be honest with your coach. Telling him that pitch that was outside is a strike isn’t  gonna help any of us”. If he keeps lying, or giving the shoulder shrug to the coach, answer the coach for him. “That pitch is in the other batter’s box, coach, you’re not getting that today.”  
 
There’s also different opinions on “mapping”. IOW, call the location with the ball call. 
“BALL - THAT’S OUT.”    I like this method. Others will disagree. I have had good results with. It’s hard to keep asking “where’s that” when I’m telling you first. 
 

one more- and don’t take this wrong… Self evaluation..how is your zone?  Are you consistent? are you hearing crap every game, or is it rare? If it’s every game, you might need to work on some plate mechanics that will help your zone be more consistent. When you work with partners you know and trust, ask for feedback. Tell them to be honest. You don’t want to hear “your zone was good” when it wasn’t. If you’re getting crap every single game about your zone, maybe it needs a little work. Ask for honest feedback. 
If you haven’t yet,  seek out clinics in your area. Nothing makes you better in all areas like a good clinic. Mechanics, strike zone judgement, situations, etc. 

[The Man in Blue]

22 hours ago, Slippery Fish said:

Thank you all for your feedback, this has given me lots of good things to think about this week! I can't tell you how greatful I am for your responses. Certainly trying to become a better umpire little by little. I definitely need to get better about owning calls that are mine, and taking on less games in a weekend is something I'm strongly considering. 

It doesn't matter if it is your 2nd game or your 2,000th game . . . getting better little by little is what we all strive for.  You are on the right track.  This can be seen through the fact that you already can self-identify things to work on.

Definitely take less games.  While you want to get as much experience as you can, as @834k3r said, you wind up with diminishing returns.  Find your personal limit and sweet spot.  Also, figure out your best rotation -- are you better starting on the plate or finishing on the plate?  I used to be a game hawk, now I won't do it.  I am good with four (and usually end up with a fifth because of schedules).  I would be happier with 2-3, but I like to travel in the summer and want to make sure it is worth my time and the tournament's investment in bringing me in.

 

22 hours ago, Slippery Fish said:

I don't know this for sure, but just from reading this site it seems like the short leash on ACs is much more ingrained into the culture of HS ball and higher than youth ball. In a situation like this, would you call time and walk over to the HC to address something like this? I try not to stop the game or yell across the field if I don't have to, but if it would improve my game management I am willing to adapt. 

As @Richvee said, do not yell across the field.  My approach depends if I am on the bases or the plate.  If I am on the plate, take out my line up card holder and go talk to him as if you were talking about a line up issue.  If I am on the bases, I hustle to meet him at the foul line.  The only things that get yelled are "time," "out," "safe," and "strike."  (No, "ball" does not get an escalated verbal call.) 

22 hours ago, Slippery Fish said:

After reading the responses to this question, I think I may be letting coaches have too much leash when it comes to comments about my strike zone. One big challenge for me is that the complaints usually aren't directly at me ("that's a terrible call, blue"), but more subtle.

This is one of those things that you need to determine for yourself.  Keep in mind, it is rarely about what is actually said and more about how it is said.  Context matters.  A dismissive "that's a terrible call" I would likely let slide.  A directed and poignant "that's a terrible call" when the coach is already reaching his limits, that is personal and ejectable.

 

22 hours ago, Slippery Fish said:

One thing I get a lot is coaches asking "where was that?" about a pitch that they didn't like. I usually answer them, but there are definitely times where it feels like this gets out of hand. Do you guys usually answer coaches when they ask that? Or do you ignore it or give another response?

Personally, I NEVER answer that question to the coach.  I will give the catcher the answer and let the catcher relay it.  How that goes down is a really barometer for how this team is going to behave.  The catcher is likely going to answer one of these ways: "It was in!" or does he say "He said it was in!" or does he say "I don't know!"  The first one is what we want to hear.  The second one indicates we are in for a long day.  he third one indicates we are in for a really long day.

Now, I will talk to the coach between innings.  Had a particularly rough one a few weeks back where his pitcher had a nasty breaking ball, but it was always breaking late and missing the zone.  Batters were set up back, catcher was way back . . . it looked good when it hit the mitt.  Coach was itching up a storm and his batters were crying when they struck on out breaking balls.  His catcher was not helping me at all, so the "call it both ways" crap started.  As he was headed to third base, I pulled out my line up card.  I informed him his kid's breaking ball is blowing it up . . . but it is mostly breaking too late to catch the plate.  With his catcher sitting back, it's getting another 5 to 6 feet of travel and looking beautiful in the mitt.  A polite, "Oh, thank you," and then not another word about it the rest of the game. 

On 6/15/2024 at 11:42 AM, Slippery Fish said:

The other challenging thing for me is that often it seems like coaches will usually make their displeasure known by talking to their players and saying things like "that's a good pitch little Jimmy," or "Hey, that's not you batter." Obviously sometimes they're encouraging their pitcher or batter, but you can tell by a coaches tone when he's just complaining about the strike zone while trying to keep plausible deniability and putting the umpire in the position of looking like the aggressor if he addresses it. Any advice on that?

Yeah, I typically don't give that one too much credence.  As you said, you can tell when it is directed at you.  Here is the mantra that got me past that one: Not every good pitch is a strike, not every strike is a good pitch.  Not every bad pitch is a ball, not every ball is a bad pitch.  On an 0-2 pitch, I don't want a breaking ball hanging out in the strike zone.  I want it off the plate with the batter chasing it.  Missing by 2-3 inches (or more) is still a good pitch.

 

[bluejerred]

On 6/11/2024 at 10:42 AM, SH0102 said:

 The asst coach however…even if no further issues happened, that’s one you regret not dumping him bc he’ll do that to the next umpire too, or you again, believing at worst he will be warned or restricted to where he already is

This is where you will see AC's or HC's asking you "don't I/they get a warning first?" once you dump an AC.

Other than that, read "Verbal Judo" - gives you a lot of tools and confidence to deal with high-stress conversations.

[Slippery Fish]

Thanks again for the help. Properly addressing coaches has been one aspect of my game that I know is lacking, and this gives me a good starting place to start working on that on the field.

On 6/15/2024 at 11:29 PM, Richvee said:

one more- and don’t take this wrong… Self evaluation..how is your zone?  Are you consistent? are you hearing crap every game, or is it rare? If it’s every game, you might need to work on some plate mechanics that will help your zone be more consistent. When you work with partners you know and trust, ask for feedback. Tell them to be honest. You don’t want to hear “your zone was good” when it wasn’t. If you’re getting crap every single game about your zone, maybe it needs a little work. Ask for honest feedback. 
If you haven’t yet,  seek out clinics in your area. Nothing makes you better in all areas like a good clinic. Mechanics, strike zone judgement, situations, etc. 

No offense taken at all, it's a perfectly valid point to consider. I get a lot more crap with the youngest age divisions, and I know I'm not as good in those games as I'd like to be. It's that umpiring paradox that better, more serious baseball is easier to officiate, so I try to work the best baseball my work schedule and skills will allow. That being said, I know I'm a lot better than I was last season. I went to the Mid-America clinic last fall and they made a lot of adjustments to my plate mechanics. I'm actually confident that I know where the pitch was now. I'm a big fan of clinic environments, but I still come on here for in-season education

 

On 6/17/2024 at 9:21 AM, bluejerred said:

Other than that, read "Verbal Judo" - gives you a lot of tools and confidence to deal with high-stress conversations.

Thanks for the tip! For all the times that I've seen this referenced on U-E, I'm just now realizing that this is an actual book and not just a slang term.
 

[Richvee]

23 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

No offense taken at all, it's a perfectly valid point to consider. I get a lot more crap with the youngest age divisions, and I know I'm not as good in those games as I'd like to be. It's that umpiring paradox that better, more serious baseball is easier to officiate, so I try to work the best baseball my work schedule and skills will allow. That being said, I know I'm a lot better than I was last season. I went to the Mid-America clinic last fall and they made a lot of adjustments to my plate mechanics. I'm actually confident that I know where the pitch was now. I'm a big fan of clinic environments, but I still come on here for in-season education

Truth... I do almost no small diamond stuff any more besides a 50/70 tournament over the memorial day weekend to help out the local assigner and see a lot of umpire friends. It's become a bit of a reunion....Anyway, my point being, balls and strikes at the level is REAL HARD. Throw in the daddy coaches who don't really know how to act, and it's even more difficult. I don't miss the younger age groups at all.  . 

[The Man in Blue]

A little off topic from the OP, but on topic for the thread title . . . 

I saw something yesterday that I . . . well, I don't even know what to think about it.  I wasn't planning on working this weekend, but I picked up two early games yesterday to help out an assignor.  

As I was coming off of my first game, I heard a kerfuffle coming from the field next to us.  

NFHS rules (well, mostly, but anyway . . . ).  Apparently one of the umpires restricted a coach to the bench (second round of play on Friday 😣) and was adamant that that restriction did not allow the coach to stand at the fence in the dugout.  He had been restricted to the bench.

 

No, I did not stick around to see how it turned out.

[BLWizzRanger]

On 6/22/2024 at 8:31 PM, The Man in Blue said:

A little off topic from the OP, but on topic for the thread title . . . 

I saw something yesterday that I . . . well, I don't even know what to think about it.  I wasn't planning on working this weekend, but I picked up two early games yesterday to help out an assignor.  

As I was coming off of my first game, I heard a kerfuffle coming from the field next to us.  

NFHS rules (well, mostly, but anyway . . . ).  Apparently one of the umpires restricted a coach to the bench (second round of play on Friday 😣) and was adamant that that restriction did not allow the coach to stand at the fence in the dugout.  He had been restricted to the bench.

 

No, I did not stick around to see how it turned out.

Ok, I've got to know for my toolbox..  would this be legal if he sat like Mork or did it need to be his ass?

[The Man in Blue]

The fact that he put himself in that situation indicates he’s all ass.  

[834k3r]

On 6/22/2024 at 5:31 PM, The Man in Blue said:

Apparently one of the umpires restricted a coach to the bench (second round of play on Friday 😣) and was adamant that that restriction did not allow the coach to stand at the fence in the dugout.  He had been restricted to the bench.

🤬

Why do we do this to ourselves? Why do some umpires insist on MSU?

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, 834k3r said:

🤬

Why do we do this to ourselves? Why do some umpires insist on MSU?

When you think about it, maybe he did umpires who work that guys future games a solid. The next time he gets restricted, he'll think he has to park his keister on the bench.

[BigBlue4u]

On 6/16/2024 at 1:17 PM, The Man in Blue said:

One thing I get a lot is coaches asking "where was that?" about a pitch that they didn't like. I usually answer them, but there are definitely times where it feels like this gets out of hand. Do you guys usually answer coaches when they ask that? Or do you ignore it or give another response?

If a coach asks me, I'll tell him ONCE.  After that, I'll tell him to ask his catcher.  If the coach continues to ask me, I'll warn him if he continues, he will be ejected.  This is definitely a game-control issue.

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, BigBlue4u said:

If a coach asks me, I'll tell him ONCE.

[The Man in Blue]

On 6/24/2024 at 2:05 PM, 834k3r said:

🤬

Why do we do this to ourselves? Why do some umpires insist on MSU?

 

I wouldn't exactly put this in the MSU category as much as overly LETTER OF THE LAW . . . LETTER!

Maybe we do need a penalty box like hockey, so we can make the coach sit without contact with the team for a little while, then let him back in; rather than letting him continue to rage in a cage.

 

[BigBlue4u]

23 hours ago, MadMax said:

MadMax....Now THAT is FUNNY!!!!!!