Balk?

[johnnyg08]

23 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

'Deception' shouldn't be used as criteria in 'balk logic'  

Agree. Effective deception is the entire point of what is/is not a good pitcher. 

[Thunderheads]

4 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Agree. Effective (legal)  deception is the entire point of what is/is not a good pitcher. 

for clarification  

[Umpire in Chief]

Here's the best picks I could snip from ESPN while eating lunch. Super close if he gained more ground towards 1st/home. From 2nd base view I couldn't get it to stop exactly on where his foot lands. Like I said I would say from these pics his non-pivot foot moved:

2-2.5 ft toward home (I'm thinking his right foot started a shade toward home of where his left knee is in the top pic)
18in-2 ft towards 1st

 

 

Funny, I let this video play and the Campbell coach apparently did ask for a balk from the box, but no discussion/argument and didn't press the issue, but the next pitch was a check swing and PU called a strike and then the Campbell coach was yelling at the PU to appeal the strike call to 3rd. PU had to take off his mask and give a little back to the coach.

[Thunderheads]

5 minutes ago, Umpire in Chief said:

Here's the best picks I could snip from ESPN while eating lunch. Super close if he gained more ground towards 1st/home. From 2nd base view I couldn't get it to stop exactly on where his foot lands

 

Funny, I let this video play and the Campbell coach apparently did ask for a balk from the box, but no discussion/argument and didn't press the issue, but the next pitch was a check swing and PU called a strike and then the Campbell coach was yelling at the PU to appeal the strike call to 3rd. PU had to take off his mask and give a little back to the coach.

FOR ME .... those photos say balk for sure ......

[The Man in Blue]

On 2/23/2023 at 10:20 AM, 834k3r said:

I have a balk, based on F1 not stepping "directly toward (the) base when throwing...in an attempt to put out." NFHS 6-2-4(b)

This in NFHS.  I would also say this in NCAA as their rule states "directly toward" also.

NCAA 9-3-c (2023-2024)

c. While in a pitching position, throw to any base in an attempt to retire a runner without first stepping directly toward such base; or throw or feint a throw toward any base when it is not an attempt to retire a runner or prevent the runner from advancing;

1) The pitcher, while touching the pitcher's plate, must step toward the base, preceding or simultaneous with any move toward that base. The pitcher is committed, upon raising the lead leg, to throw to the base being faced, to second base or to the plate. When throwing or feinting a throw to a base not being faced, the pitcher must step immediately, directly and gain ground toward that base.

Does the 45-degrees come from an interp?  In every math class I ever took, 45-degrees is not directly toward.  51% is not direct.  Does your direct flight from O'Hare to JFK go to Washington National?  Granted, my "direct deposit" does take a day or two to show up sometimes ... (Promise I am not going to argue this one as officiating by case play over the written rule, I'm just curious.)

 

I also was looking at the fact that his motion took his leg backward, then forward towards home, not first base.  I was thinking once his foot passed the front plane of the pitcher's plate, he was committed to pitch (or go to 2B) ... but it is the back plane.  I'm sure that will never get changed, but I would offer that for consideration for change.

[johnnyg08]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

for clarification  

What's funny about this is that I actually wrote that exact thing...then deleted it before I posted it. 

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, jms1425 said:

As a building contractor, there is no way his foot is even close to an imaginary 45 degree line. Put a large speed square on the rubber and draw a 45 from the edge or even middle of the rubber and he's nowhere close.(Assuming logically that's where we are measuring from.) 45 degrees is a much steeper angle than most people imagine. If you drew a 45 from the 1st base edge of the rubber, you'd be surprised where that line hits. That line is perpendicular to the 1B foul line, directly to the front corner of the rubber. Draw it out for yourself and see.

That's my professional opinion. That and $5.00 gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

[JonnyCat]

Double post. 

[johnnyg08]

2 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

As a building contractor, there is no way his foot is even close to an imaginary 45 degree line. Put a large speed square on the rubber and draw a 45 from the edge or even middle of the rubber and he's nowhere close.(Assuming logically that's where we are measuring from.) 45 degrees is a much steeper angle than most people imagine. If you drew a 45 from the 1st base edge of the rubber, you'd be surprised where that line hits. That line is perpendicular to the 1B foul line, directly to the front corner of the rubber. Draw it out for yourself and see.

That's my professional opinion. That and $5.00 gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

I agree with you. That's kind of my point. Simple...put a line there. Makes it easy for everyone. Truth be told we might balk one at 44 degrees and allow one at 46. A line, even if it's wrong, it's a visual for everyone. 

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

In my mind, if they're going to put a number (45) in the rule book then they should put a line on the mound. 

On or inside. you're good. 

That's been tried.  Disaster.

[kylehutson]

2 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

In my mind, if they're going to put a number (45) in the rule book then they should put a line on the mound. 

On or inside. you're good. 

That sounds good in theory. But then where does the 45° mark start? It should be from his back foot, but he may be barely touching the pitcher's plate on the 3B side, or the 1B side.

I can easily think of many obviously-no-balk situations that would be called in this case.

And then there's the other obvious issue with dirt mounds and how to draw the lines.

[BLWizzRanger]

All of these posts and no one mentions that their left elbows hurt from just looking at the pictures?  You guys are studs!

I will stand by my first impression that it was a balk for no better reason than if it didn't look right, then it probably isn't.  Flame away...

[johnnyg08]

2 hours ago, kylehutson said:

That sounds good in theory. But then where does the 45° mark start? It should be from his back foot, but he may be barely touching the pitcher's plate on the 3B side, or the 1B side.

I can easily think of many obviously-no-balk situations that would be called in this case.

And then there's the other obvious issue with dirt mounds and how to draw the lines.

You bring up some fair points that I hadn't considered. Thank you for chiming in. 

[johnnyg08]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

That's been tried.  Disaster.

Noted. I wasn't aware...or if I was, I forgot about it. Thank you for chiming in! 

[Richvee]

2 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Noted. I wasn't aware...or if I was, I forgot about it. Thank you for chiming in! 

It was a long time ago I believe in spring training. Not sure it ever made it to regular season. It was a looong time ago. I was in elementary school. 

[johnnyg08]

Just now, Richvee said:

It was a long time ago I believe in spring training. Not sure it ever made it to regular season. It was a looong time ago. I was in elementary school. 

Appreciate that. I feel like I would've remembered that when in fact, I was likely too young to have known about it. 

[834k3r]

22 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Does the 45-degrees come from an interp?  In every math class I ever took, 45-degrees is not directly toward.  51% is not direct.  Does your direct flight from O'Hare to JFK go to Washington National?  Granted, my "direct deposit" does take a day or two to show up sometimes ... (Promise I am not going to argue this one as officiating by case play over the written rule, I'm just curious.)

I also was looking at the fact that his motion took his leg backward, then forward towards home, not first base.  I was thinking once his foot passed the front plane of the pitcher's plate, he was committed to pitch (or go to 2B) ... but it is the back plane.  I'm sure that will never get changed, but I would offer that for consideration for change.

I see your point.

In NFHS, the 45-degree comes from the Case Book (6.2.4 Situation B):  "...[t]o comply with the requirement to 'step directly toward,' F1 must step to the first-base side of a 45-degree angle between center of pitcher's plate and between home and first base."