Trouble Balls in 2-Man

[834k3r]

I'm re-reading through last year's FED Umpire Manual. Reading through the 2-man mechanics made me wonder how aggressively <waves hand> all of you go out on a trouble balls. I wonder because I've seen it only a handful of times per year between HS, Legion, and travel ball.

It makes me wonder if in other areas of the country going out on trouble balls is more prevalent than where I am (PNW).

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[noumpere]

42 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

I'm re-reading through last year's FED Umpire Manual. Reading through the 2-man mechanics made me wonder how aggressively <waves hand> all of you go out on a trouble balls. I wonder because I've seen it only a handful of times per year between HS, Legion, and travel ball.

It makes me wonder if in other areas of the country going out on trouble balls is more prevalent than where I am (PNW).

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Yes -- go out aggressively.  But, it's after a "pause. read, react" -- and with many of us at an advanced age, we won't get out far.  We run hard, but we stay in the same place too long while doing so.

In any event, it's better to be out wishing you were in than in wishing you were out.  And, that applies to umpiring, too.

[kylehutson]

In 2-man, I usually go out on a fair-foul decision from A. Otherwise, I'll stay in.

[JSam21]

If it meets the criteria for a trouble ball, it is in your AOR for trouble balls, and you're in A... you better be going out. Work the system the correct way and no one gets in trouble. When we start making it up as we go from game to game, that is when we get in trouble and pick up bad habits. 

As a plate umpire in the 2 umpire system, be moving into position to take a play at 2nd base until you know your partner isn't going out on the ball. Keep an eye on the touch at first since your partner has to stay with the catch until completion. U1 has all fly balls from F8, straight back/straight in, to the boundary on the right field side when starting in A. We really need to stop with "PU has all fly balls" mentality.

 

[834k3r]

My sense from these inputs is the FED manual says exactly what @JSam21 says, but in my experience and @kylehutson's input most U1's don't go out very often at all.

So I guess my follow-up question is does this mean the manual is overly specific, or is there a gaping hole in our training? Or, as JSam opines, are we fraught with bad habits?

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

If it meets the criteria for a trouble ball, it is in your AOR for trouble balls, and you're in A... you better be going out. Work the system the correct way and no one gets in trouble. When we start making it up as we go from game to game, that is when we get in trouble and pick up bad habits. 

As a plate umpire in the 2 umpire system, be moving into position to take a play at 2nd base until you know your partner isn't going out on the ball. Keep an eye on the touch at first since your partner has to stay with the catch until completion. U1 has all fly balls from F8, straight back/straight in, to the boundary on the right field side when starting in A. We really need to stop with "PU has all fly balls" mentality.

 

There was a college group who did not want U1 to go out in 2-man. The pause to read put slower U1s in a bad spot if they then decided to go in. 

[lawump]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:49 AM, 834k3r said:

I'm re-reading through last year's FED Umpire Manual.

[That's you're first mistake, LOL (and that's coming from someone who was on the NFHS umpire manual sub-committee).  Of course, if your local high school association goes by the FED umpire manual...then you have to use it.  (I would recommend, however, that your association switch to CCA...but I digress.)]

With that said, I believe the NFHS umpire manual is the same as CCA and the MiLBUD mechanics book with regards to this specific issue.  So, as pointed out in posts above, when in the "A" position a high school umpire should use the pause, read, and react technique to determine if the batted ball is a "trouble ball".  A trouble ball is a batted ball that (a) will require a fair/foul decision, (b) could involve the fence (i.e. home run, off the fence, ground rule double), (c) could involve a fielder having to "lay-out" or dive, (d) results in two or more fielders coming together on a hard run (could be a collision).  If, after pausing, the umpire reads that a trouble ball is developing, then that umpire will react by going out. 

We teach/preach the "pause, read, and react" technique here in the high school group in the Midlands of South Carolina.  We want our umpires going out from A in these situations in a two-man crew.  We also teach our plate umpires the same mechanic taught at umpire school:  clear the catcher on the left, start running on the infield grass (about halfway between the edge of the mound's dirt circle and the foul line) toward right field, and read your partner.  If U1 goes out, then the plate umpire has the B/R all the way around the bases.  If U1 comes in, the plate umpire can "pull up" and take responsibility for the catch/no-catch from the infield grass.  

There was one particular egregious case two years ago where my partner (U1) came in and I had to bust my ass hard to get on the foul line for a fair/foul decision down the right-field line.  This is what we don't want to have happen.  When we talked between innings he just said had a brain fart.  

[834k3r]

I guess the point of my OP was there's an apparent disconnect between what I've seen in my area and what is directed/suggested by publication(s). My personal takeaway when I re-read it was "man, I don't go out nearly enough" but I'm encouraged by the lack of consensus on this thread.

[lawump]

18 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

I guess the point of my OP was there's an apparent disconnect between what I've seen in my area and what is directed/suggested by publication(s). My personal takeaway when I re-read it was "man, I don't go out nearly enough" but I'm encouraged by the lack of consensus on this thread.

Every upper level (NFHS, CCA (NCAA), and MiLBUD) manual says for U1 to go out from A on a trouble ball from F8 straight in/straight back all the way to the wall that is parallel to the right field foul line.  In my opinion, most amateur umpires, "don't go out nearly enough".  

I'm not disagreeing with @Jimurray's post above, but I am in shock to read it.  It is totally not supported by the CCA manual.  

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, lawump said:

Every upper level (NFHS, CCA (NCAA), and MiLBUD) manual says for U1 to go out from A on a trouble ball from F8 straight in/straight back all the way to the wall that is parallel to the right field foul line.  In my opinion, most amateur umpires, "don't go out nearly enough".  

I'm not disagreeing with @Jimurray's post above, but I am in shock to read it.  It is totally not supported by the CCA manual.  

The assignor that espoused this advocated it to NCAA/CCA and was turned down but he still wanted his slower umpires to just commit to going in right away. His argument other than U1 being behind the batter was that the PU has the LF line and trouble so why not the RF line.

[JSam21]

47 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

The assignor that espoused this advocated it to NCAA/CCA and was turned down but he still wanted his slower umpires to just commit to going in right away. His argument other than U1 being behind the batter was that the PU has the LF line and trouble so why not the RF line.

My response to this is... Maybe, just maybe, if the people who are working a college game, can't keep up with the speed of the college game using the mechanics prescribed for a college game, they shouldn't be working a college game. 

Sometimes we are our own worst enemy when it comes to mechanics. Too many people without fluent enough knowledge trying to re-invent the wheel. Let's just work the way that we are supposed to work and if you can't work that way at a certain level, you can't work that level anymore. 

 

But back to the original question. At the High School level, I'm 100% certain that we don't go out enough from A, because people don't want to work the system properly and just get through their games. I've actually had people tell me that they have never gone out on a ball... period. 

 

[Jimurray]

14 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

My response to this is... Maybe, just maybe, if the people who are working a college game, can't keep up with the speed of the college game using the mechanics prescribed for a college game, they shouldn't be working a college game. 

Sometimes we are our own worst enemy when it comes to mechanics. Too many people without fluent enough knowledge trying to re-invent the wheel. Let's just work the way that we are supposed to work and if you can't work that way at a certain level, you can't work that level anymore. 

 

But back to the original question. At the High School level, I'm 100% certain that we don't go out enough from A, because people don't want to work the system properly and just get through their games. I've actually had people tell me that they have never gone out on a ball... period. 

 

Maybe, just maybe, that's why more and more college conferences are going to 3 and 4 man, including the above referenced assignor's conferences.

[kylehutson]

7 hours ago, JSam21 said:

If it meets the criteria for a trouble ball, it is in your AOR for trouble balls, and you're in A... you better be going out. Work the system the correct way and no one gets in trouble. When we start making it up as we go from game to game, that is when we get in trouble and pick up bad habits. 

As a plate umpire in the 2 umpire system, be moving into position to take a play at 2nd base until you know your partner isn't going out on the ball. Keep an eye on the touch at first since your partner has to stay with the catch until completion. U1 has all fly balls from F8, straight back/straight in, to the boundary on the right field side when starting in A. We really need to stop with "PU has all fly balls" mentality.

 

I get it, but "when in Rome..."

If I went out from A as often as I should, I'm quite certain my partners would be calling assigners telling them not to have us work together again.

[The Man in Blue]

3 hours ago, JSam21 said:

My response to this is... Maybe, just maybe, if the people who are working a college game, can't keep up with the speed of the college game using the mechanics prescribed for a college game, they shouldn't be working a college game. 

But that might require assignors to *gasp* find and recruit new talent, or *double gasp* give some of the rest of us a shot instead of sending Good Ol' Jerry Attric and Barry "Barely" Mooven who he's been using for the last 34 years.  Their best qualification is they are retired and easy to get. 

3 hours ago, JSam21 said:

But back to the original question. At the High School level, I'm 100% certain that we don't go out enough from A, because people don't want to work the system properly and just get through their games. I've actually had people tell me that they have never gone out on a ball... period. 

Go out?  Hell, after last season, I'm just happy with a partner who stays till the end of the game.  If a couple of the the ya-hoos I worked with go out, they are likely to just keep going and not come back.  🤪

[JSam21]

13 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

But that might require assignors to *gasp* find and recruit new talent, or *double gasp* give some of the rest of us a shot instead of sending Good Ol' Jerry Attric and Barry "Barely" Mooven who he's been using for the last 34 years.  Their best qualification is they are retired and easy to get. 

Something that I've heard at camps, "Availability trumps ability". I've been able to open up my Fridays a bit and I've been loaded up. Day jobs really are a killer.

[834k3r]

17 hours ago, kylehutson said:

I get it, but "when in Rome..."

If I went out from A as often as I should, I'm quite certain my partners would be calling assigners telling them not to have us work together again.

Therein lies the gist of my OP. I'm definitely going to bring this up with our area assignor and discuss the points made here (the college conference issue notwithstanding). It's important for all the area umpires to be on the same page.

[The Man in Blue]

10 hours ago, JSam21 said:

Something that I've heard at camps, "Availability trumps ability". I've been able to open up my Fridays a bit and I've been loaded up. Day jobs really are a killer.

 

I am not going to claim it is always the situation everywhere ... just the one that I encountered.  That is only part of the truth in my experience.

I was one of two guys willing to drive to any JCs in a 3-hour radius.  My work schedule had me working with municipalities where most of this conference's schools were and I had the flexibility. 

I got one call for a game down the road from my house, and it was the day of the game when nobody else was available.  My partner who worked for the assignor regularly (and drove 2 1/2 hours to get there) gave me rave reviews and talked me up.  Still never got another call (but the guy was happy to take my money for his "clinic" for three years).

Oh well.  Wasn't meant to be.

[Richvee]

On 12/14/2022 at 6:16 PM, kylehutson said:

I get it, but "when in Rome..."

If I went out from A as often as I should, I'm quite certain my partners would be calling assigners telling them not to have us work together again.

That's on them. First off, If I have a partner bitching about me going out too much, and doesn't want to work with me anymore because of it, the feeling's mutual. Secondly, if I have an assigner call me to tell me I'm going out too much, I may be working for the wrong assigner. 

I've got more horror stories about partners that don't go out (even on fly balls on the RF line, and HR's near the RF foul pole), and partners that may as well be sitting on a chair behind the plate because they're going nowhere on any batted ball in any situation.

I've found the best cure for that, is advance, and get better games. Better games usually means better partners.  

[SeeingEyeDog]

I was taught trouble balls from A are:

1) Down the line

2) A ball that might be caught below the waist

3) Fielders converging

4) Ball to the fence (and might become lodged, go over or bounce over)

It's easy to discuss these things in a vacuum but, it's all in the read, isn't it? So, what is the read? How do we read? Obviously, the first thing is the ball coming off the bat. If you are reading that ball hit in the air to right field, right-center or down the 1B line in the air, you want to pivot and open up. Both feet remain in foul territory and you are facing fair territory. If the ball goes directly over you, you know you're going to have fair/foul. Move out on that ball and remember to come to a full stop before the ball comes down to be caught or hit the ground.

We also want to read the right fielder (and the center fielder on items 2, 3 or 4 above). If the right fielder or the center fielder is running to make a play on the ball...you should be going out. If they just take a few steps and then settle. You should not be going out.

If you are unsure if you should be going out? Go out. Yes, we look a little foolish when we go out on balls that we should not have gone out on but we look more foolish NOT going out when we should have.

I've noticed when pre-gaming with guys I haven't worked with before and we talk about going out, I get the comment (when they are on the plate), "Hey...don't go out unless you have to..." Um...yeah...I shoot that down with everything above. It's not about someone's convenience. We have an obligation to do everything we can to get every call correct. The crew working together. If I feel the play requires me to be out, I am going out. I'm sorry that means you are doing the loopty loop around the diamond possibly into 3B.

In closing, EVERY time you go out, making a swooping point to the outfield and announce you partner's name and you are going out. Example..."John! I'm going!" We used to say, "John! I'm going out!" but, my association decided we didn't like our umpires shouting the word, "Out!" unnecessarily. Once you are out on a ball and it goes uncaught and is fair...your next move is to get on your horse and get to the plate in the event the batter/runner tries for an inside the park HR or the ball goes over the fence for a HR. If it's an inside the park HR try, you might have a play at the plate. If the ball is hit over the fence for a HR, you will be eyeing the touch of home plate.

~Dawg

~Dawg 

[834k3r]

22 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

If you are unsure if you should be going out? Go out. Yes, we look a little foolish when we go out on balls that we should not have gone out on but we look more foolish NOT going out when we should have.

Personally, I love a well-executed rotation. It's something that most fans won't notice (they'll watch the ball or the runner) and the fan's reaction of a play at the plate where U1 is the one making the call ("how the hell did he get there?") is priceless.

[Mudisfun]

On 12/18/2022 at 11:25 AM, SeeingEyeDog said:

I was taught trouble balls from A are:

Once you are out on a ball and it goes uncaught and is fair...your next move is to get on your horse and get to the plate in the event the batter/runner tries for an inside the park HR or the ball goes over the fence for a HR. If it's an inside the park HR try, you might have a play at the plate. If the ball is hit over the fence for a HR, you will be eyeing the touch of home plate.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you put except the above. Our mechanic is once you go out, you stay out. The plate umpire is responsible for all plays on the bases, including back into home. The base umpire can help with interference and obstruction, but they are no longer going to officiate a play. Your association may handle this differently, so not saying it is better or worse, just not what we do in my area at any level of 2 man.

 

 

[JonnyCat]

9 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

I agree with pretty much everything you put except the above. Our mechanic is once you go out, you stay out. The plate umpire is responsible for all plays on the bases, including back into home. The base umpire can help with interference and obstruction, but they are no longer going to officiate a play. Your association may handle this differently, so not saying it is better or worse, just not what we do in my area at any level of 2 man.

 

 

I understand if that's the way your association or area does that. When in Rome.

However, the proper mechanic is for the base umpire to cover plays at the plate. There are some exceptions to this if the BU has to stay out longer to see if the ball has gone out of play, but for the most part the BU will take plays at the plate. There is usually plenty of time for the BU to get down there.

And if you're working with me, Kevin, you better get down there. Otherwise this old man will get grumpy from running all that way! 

[The Man in Blue]

I was always taught "go out stay out" which has never made any sense to me.   Why are you sacrificing an umpire?

I understand you aren't coming back in time to get into position at 2nd base and definitely not back to 3rd base, but the rotation to the plate makes perfect sense.

[JSam21]

10 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I was always taught "go out stay out" which has never made any sense to me.   Why are you sacrificing an umpire?

I understand you aren't coming back in time to get into position at 2nd base and definitely not back to 3rd base, but the rotation to the plate makes perfect sense.

It is something that has been misinterpreted from the 3/4 umpire system. In those systems, if you go out, you stay out, because you have umpires to cover it. But with the 2 umpire system, you have to come back. 

[The Man in Blue]

That makes sense.