Fair or Foul? Help me settle what I consider to be a really dumb argument.

[ElPolloDiablo]

I'm in an argument with someone, and I cannot believe I even have to call for backup for this one.

Situation:

Batter hits a little pop up that lands a third of the way between home and third, landing on fair territory. The ball bounces, and the spin carries it up and over the foul line (still between home and third), where 3B grabs it in midair. The ball is clearly over the foul line when he catches it, but it never touches foul ground. 

Fair or foul?

I may need to clarify here:

So the ball touched the ground in fair territory before passing 3B, bounced across the foul line because of some wicked spin, and was grabbed in midair while above  foul territory, but has not passed 1B or 3B. It never touched the ground in foul territory.

[agdz59]

If the ball is over foul territory when it is first touched between home and the base on that side of the field, it is a foul ball. Doesn't matter where the fielder's feet or body are nor does it matter how the ball got there as long as it NEVER got to the 1st or 3rd base bag. 

[BLWizzRanger]

Over the foul line?  Fair.  Doesn't matter where it bounced first as long as the ball hasn't passed first or third base nor an imaginary line extended between those two bases in fair territory.

[Jimurray]

10 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Over the foul line?  Fair.  Doesn't matter where it bounced first as long as the ball hasn't passed first or third base nor an imaginary line extended between those two bases in fair territory.

We need to know if over means above or past. 

[Senor Azul]

deleted because I misread OP

[Lou B]

If it's over (directly above) the foul line it's fair.

If it is over (past) the foul line it's foul.

[ElPolloDiablo]

5 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Over the foul line?  Fair.  Doesn't matter where it bounced first as long as the ball hasn't passed first or third base nor an imaginary line extended between those two bases in fair territory.

So I might need to restate the scenario:

Ball is batted and bounces off the ground in fair territory about 1/3 of the way down the 3B line. 

The spin is such that, as the ball bounces, it crosses over the foul line by about a foot. Mind you, it is still in midair. It has not touched foul ground, nor has it passed third base.

3B is rushing up the line, and reaches out to grab the ball, still in midair over foul territory, but not past third base. 

So the ball touched fair territory, bounced in the air, and was grabbed in midair while over foul territory, but has not passed 1B or 3B.

[ElPolloDiablo]

5 hours ago, Jimurray said:

We need to know if over means above or past. 

Sorry, "over" meaning "on the other side of" the line. I should have said "across" instead.

It is in the air after having touched the ground in fair territory. The bounce has carried it across the foul line before it has passed first or third. So now it is above foul territory, still in midair from bouncing on fair territory, and has not passed first or third. Before the ball can touch the ground in foul territory, 3B snags it in midair.

So the only time the ball touched the ground was in fair territory between home and third. It never passed the imaginary line between first and third, nor did it pass third base.

[ElPolloDiablo]

6 hours ago, agdz59 said:

If the ball is over foul territory when it is first touched between home and the base on that side of the field, it is a foul ball. Doesn't matter where the fielder's feet or body are nor does it matter how the ball got there as long as it NEVER got to the 1st or 3rd base bag. 

I'm not concerned about the fielder (I know his position is irrelevant), I'm concerned about where the ball is after it has bounced on fair territory. The ball never passed first or third. It bounced on fair territory; that bounce carried it across the foul line, so that it is now in the air above foul territory when 3B grabs it. It never touches foul ground, it only ever touches fair ground.

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, ElPolloDiablo said:

I'm not concerned about the fielder (I know his position is irrelevant), I'm concerned about where the ball is after it has bounced on fair territory. The ball never passed first or third. It bounced on fair territory; that bounce carried it across the foul line, so that it is now in the air above foul territory when 3B grabs it. It never touches foul ground, it only ever touches fair ground.

If no part of that ball, when touched in the air, over foul territory, was above the foul line it is foul. You should believe you are in an argument because of hazy semantics. 

[ElPolloDiablo]

5 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

If no part of that ball, when touched in the air, over foul territory, was above the foul line it is foul. You should believe you are in an argument because of hazy semantics. 

It is an argument (I use the term more jokingly than not) that arose from a game situation, but I don't think I am accurately describing it. I wish I could diagram it.

[SH0102]

5 hours ago, ElPolloDiablo said:

It is an argument (I use the term more jokingly than not) that arose from a game situation, but I don't think I am accurately describing it. I wish I could diagram it.

I’m guessing you lose the bet bc you keep emphasizing that it hit in fair territory which really means nothing except that the ball snagged in the air is no longer a catch.

in regards to fair/foul, prior to the base (first 89.9 feet) the only thing that matters is the position of the ball.

in your play, foul

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, ElPolloDiablo said:

It is an argument (I use the term more jokingly than not) that arose from a game situation, but I don't think I am accurately describing it. I wish I could diagram it.

This is NOT basketball, where a ball that hes bounced on the court is still inbounds until ti touches something that is located outside the court..

 

In baseball, the ball is foul if it's touched while the ball is on the foul side of a plane extending vertically upwards from the foul line

[ArchAngel72]

OPS post is a bit back and forth.

Over the foul line now over foul territory 

before it passed 3B  then but it had not passed 1B or 3B

 

So  based on the edit to clarify I am going to say this is what you meant

"The ball popped up and then landed striking fair ground near the 3B line before it had a chance to pass 3B the spin it had bounced it over the line into foul territory where the fielder snatched it out of the air before it touched the ground."

 

"FOUL"  is the call

It was not touched in fair territory before passing 3B.  If it lands PAST 3B in fair and then goes foul its Still a fair ball.  Has to be beyond the bases before the bases it could strike the mound and ricochet foul before the bags and its still foul.

[ElPolloDiablo]

On 6/16/2022 at 6:13 AM, ArchAngel72 said:

OPS post is a bit back and forth.

Over the foul line now over foul territory 

before it passed 3B  then but it had not passed 1B or 3B

 

So  based on the edit to clarify I am going to say this is what you meant

"The ball popped up and then landed striking fair ground near the 3B line before it had a chance to pass 3B the spin it had bounced it over the line into foul territory where the fielder snatched it out of the air before it touched the ground."

 

"FOUL"  is the call

It was not touched in fair territory before passing 3B.  If it lands PAST 3B in fair and then goes foul its Still a fair ball.  Has to be beyond the bases before the bases it could strike the mound and ricochet foul before the bags and its still foul.

Thank you! My partner was absolutely adamant that I made the wrong call. I kept saying, "The definition is '...on or over foul ground when it touches the person of a...player...'" It never qualifies whether it had touched the ground anywhere else. The dude was actually trash talking me to the coach on the field during the game about it. (I learned this tidbit later.)

[ElPolloDiablo]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

This is NOT basketball, where a ball that hes bounced on the court is still inbounds until ti touches something that is located outside the court..

 

In baseball, the ball is foul if it's touched while the ball is on the foul side of a plane extending vertically upwards from the foul line

Yes!!! You guys are the best! Thank you so much.

[ArchAngel72]

2 minutes ago, ElPolloDiablo said:

Thank you! My partner was absolutely adamant that I made the wrong call. I kept saying, "The definition is '...on or over foul ground when it touches the person of a...player...'" It never qualifies whether it had touched the ground anywhere else. The dude was actually trash talking me to the coach on the field during the game about it. (I learned this tidbit later.)

Needless to say, I won't work with him again.

He trash talked you to a coach?  Yeah I would not work with him again and I would make sure whomever was supervising the scheduling to know that as well.

Dang 

[wolfe_man]

I'd make 100% sure something was true (not hearsay and not second or third-handed) before I started talking to my assignor.  Coaches can, and do, say all sorts of things to try to break up an umpire team or get them to work against each other. 

It's certainly your prerogative to work with whomever you choose, but I'd be careful going about trying to wreck others opportunities based on a coach's word that may or may not be actually true.  I'm not of the opinion all coaches are evil, but there are certainly some of them willing to sow discord and break up the unity of an umpire team.   If you just jump at their word, then they are winning.  Talking to your assignor ought to be like talking to a judge in court, where you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  And if a coach told you that your partner was trash-talking you, then that is known as hearsay and inadmissible in court - and it's not the truth.  The truth is what really happened and is an actual recollection of what was said or transpired.

Just my

[The Man in Blue]

#2 dumbest thing I ever said to a coach:

"Coach, it hit the on the foul line on the foul side -- it's a fair ball."

I wasn't wrong ... I just could have said it better.  Although, he stared at me like I was an alien for a moment and then walked away, so I guess it worked just fine.

[ElPolloDiablo]

On 6/16/2022 at 8:36 AM, ArchAngel72 said:

He trash talked you to a coach?  Yeah I would not work with him again and I would make sure whomever was supervising the scheduling to know that as well.

Dang 

The guy is a head case. He thinks he is much better than he really is. I'm not joking when I say a good 3/4 of the other guys won't work with him. I do it because I don't want to make my assigner's life any more difficult than it already is. I know I said above that I wouldn't, but I've reconsidered now. The only reason my assigner uses him at all is because we are so short on guys.

[ElPolloDiablo]

On 6/16/2022 at 8:46 AM, wolfe_man said:

I'd make 100% sure something was true (not hearsay and not second or third-handed) before I started talking to my assignor.  Coaches can, and do, say all sorts of things to try to break up an umpire team or get them to work against each other. 

It's certainly your prerogative to work with whomever you choose, but I'd be careful going about trying to wreck others opportunities based on a coach's word that may or may not be actually true.  I'm not of the opinion all coaches are evil, but there are certainly some of them willing to sow discord and break up the unity of an umpire team.   If you just jump at their word, then they are winning.  Talking to your assignor ought to be like talking to a judge in court, where you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  And if a coach told you that your partner was trash-talking you, then that is known as hearsay and inadmissible in court - and it's not the truth.  The truth is what really happened and is an actual recollection of what was said or transpired.

Just my

This is great advice, and I appreciate you taking the time to give it.

The guy in question is a problem for everyone, and most of the guys flat out refuse to work with him. But with being so short on guys to work games, our assigner has to grudgingly use him. Even still, I'd never tell my assigner not to put me with him, because I don't want to make his job any harder. I know I said above that I wouldn't, but I've reconsidered now.

As for the game in question, the coach is actually a friend of mine. I've worked games for his club teams for five years now, and he and I knew each other way back when our kids were playing Little League (about 10 years or so). He's a good guy, and I don't think he would lie about something like this. Plus he's not the first coach to say something about this guy badmouthing other umpires.

When we are gearing up and having our pregame, he complains endlessly about this guy or that guy. Or he goes on about how he's not getting playoff assignments, and the assigner is a jerk, etc. I've never heard him say a kind word about anyone, now that I think about it. I'm sure he talks about me with other guys he works with.

All of that is to say that your advice is good, and it's better to keep a healthy dose of skepticism on hand. But knowing this guy like I do, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Thanks again. I really do appreciate it.

[ElPolloDiablo]

On 6/16/2022 at 7:18 PM, The Man in Blue said:

#2 dumbest thing I ever said to a coach:

"Coach, it hit the on the foul line on the foul side -- it's a fair ball."

I wasn't wrong ... I just could have said it better.  Although, he stared at me like I was an alien for a moment and then walked away, so I guess it worked just fine.

Ok, what was #1?

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, ElPolloDiablo said:

Ok, what was #1?

Varsity softball game.  R1 is a BIG girl ... I mean varsity linebacker big.  Double play ball and she comes in standing up so F6 (who is dwarfed by R1) cannot make a throw.  I am PU, call time, and call out the batter runner.  Predictably, the coach comes out and goes nuts.  A nice version of the transcript might look like this:

Coach: "So you called her out for not sliding?"

Me: "No coach, I called the batter out because of the interference on the double play."

Coach: "What interference?"

Me: "She didn't allow the fielder to make the play.  She came in standing up and completely blocked the play out."

Coach: "So you called her out for not sliding?"

Me: "No, sir.  By rule, she doesn't have to slide ... but she can't interfere."

Coach: "So what was she supposed to do?"

Me -- who has had enough by now -- "I don't know, coach.  Slide?"

Coach -- "You just said she didn't have to slide!"

Me -- "I didn't say she had to."

Coach -- "But you called her out for not sliding!"

 

[ElPolloDiablo]

23 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Varsity softball game.  R1 is a BIG girl ... I mean varsity linebacker big.  Double play ball and she comes in standing up so F6 (who is dwarfed by R1) cannot make a throw.  I am PU, call time, and call out the batter runner.  Predictably, the coach comes out and goes nuts.  A nice version of the transcript might look like this:

Coach: "So you called her out for not sliding?"

Me: "No coach, I called the batter out because of the interference on the double play."

Coach: "What interference?"

Me: "She didn't allow the fielder to make the play.  She came in standing up and completely blocked the play out."

Coach: "So you called her out for not sliding?"

Me: "No, sir.  By rule, she doesn't have to slide ... but she can't interfere."

Coach: "So what was she supposed to do?"

Me -- who has had enough by now -- "I don't know, coach.  Slide?"

Coach -- "You just said she didn't have to slide!"

Me -- "I didn't say she had to."

Coach -- "But you called her out for not sliding!"

 

This could be a bit.

[The Man in Blue]

Oh ... it was!