tag up from third

[Guest cman]

ball is caught by short stop player on third goes home leaves the playing area ,ball is thrown to 3rd to get the out ball is dropped by third basemen and is deemed to go out of play. is the player that did not tag up out? go back to third? go home and score?

[Senor Azul]

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.47, pp. 74-75):

Play 13:  Runner on first, no outs, hit-and-run. Batter hits a line drive which strikes the pitcher in the back, flies into the air and is caught by the third baseman for an out. The runner on first is nearly to second base when the ball is caught. The third baseman throws to first, attempting to double the runner off first base; however, his throw is wild and goes into the stands. At the time of the throw, the runner from first has not quite reached second base. When the ball goes out of play, the runner from first has rounded second base (touching second as he rounded it) and is several steps towards shortstop.

j. Doesn’t the act of the third baseman throwing the ball out of play nullify a succeeding appeal attempt? That is, hasn’t the defense erred on its first attempt to appeal? Ruling:  No. The wild throw by the third baseman is part of the continuous action created by the batter hitting the ball and does not nullify a subsequent appeal after the continuous action has ended.

[SH0102]

1 hour ago, Guest cman said:

ball is caught by short stop player on third goes home leaves the playing area ,ball is thrown to 3rd to get the out ball is dropped by third basemen and is deemed to go out of play. is the player that did not tag up out? go back to third? go home and score?

Lot of info missing here…what rule set? Was the throw to third an immediate attempt to retire the runner (going back to the bag for ex) or a declared/obvious appeal attempt? Did the runner even leave early? How do you know it was an out if they never even kept it in play on appeal?

If former, the ball going OOP only awards home, batter must still retouch if hasn’t and is subject to appeal.

A ball thrown OOP on a subsequent appeal is a “play” and thus can not be reappealed.  What I’m not sure on is if this is true across every code

[beerguy55]

3 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Lot of info missing here

Lot of grammar missing here.

 

4 hours ago, Guest cman said:

ball is caught by short stop player on third goes home leaves the playing area ,ball is thrown to 3rd to get the out ball is dropped by third basemen and is deemed to go out of play.

Try using complete sentences...typically makes the English language easier for others to understand.

Describe the play and sequence...as it is, I'm trying to figure out how a runner on third got home and then to the dugout while a shortstop is making a catch and throw to third...and how a third baseman drops a ball that goes out of play.

[ArchAngel72]

Based on what I am reading it sounds like R3 scored and the defense attempted an appeal to 3rd, however the appeal throw went out of play.

Based on that the run scores and there is no other appeal that can be attempted.

 

Least based on my interpretation of that OP

 

[maven]

Correct: R3 must retouch, but if F6's throw to appeal his failure to retouch goes out of play—including a live-ball appeal, as in the OP—then the defense loses its right to appeal per 5.09(c).

At that point, it wouldn't matter whether R3 ever retouched: that error could not be appealed again.

IIRC (books not here) FED is the same.

[agdz59]

14 minutes ago, maven said:

Correct: R3 must retouch, but if F6's throw to appeal his failure to retouch goes out of play—including a live-ball appeal, as in the OP—then the defense loses its right to appeal per 5.09(c).

At that point, it wouldn't matter whether R3 ever retouched: that error could not be appealed again.

IIRC (books not here) FED is the same.

The way I read FED 8-3-6(c), the defense does get a chance to appeal on a ball thrown out of play. Let me know if I am interpreting it wrong:

Dead Ball. The dead-ball appeal may be made: 1) Once all runners
have completed their advancement and time has been called, a coach or
any defensive player, with or without the ball, may make a verbal
appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a
caught fly ball. The administering umpire should then make a decision
on the play. 2) If the ball has gone out of play, runners must be given
the opportunity to complete their base-running responsibilities before
the dead-ball appeal can be made.

[maven]

35 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

The way I read FED 8-3-6(c), the defense does get a chance to appeal on a ball thrown out of play. Let me know if I am interpreting it wrong:

I think you're reading that provision correctly as far as it goes.

The question is whether the defense may make a dead-ball appeal after a failed live-ball appeal. It matters that the throw out of play was an appeal, not just live-ball play. I don't think so (but still don't have my books).

[noumpere]

9 minutes ago, maven said:

I think you're reading that provision correctly as far as it goes.

The question is whether the defense may make a dead-ball appeal after a failed live-ball appeal. It matters that the throw out of play was an appeal, not just live-ball play. I don't think so (but still don't have my books).

I seem to recall a case play or interp where FED still allows an appeal after an appeal is thrown out of play.  I am also away from my books

[beerguy55]

An appeal, nor attempted appeal, is not a "play" - I believe in both FED and OBR.

I don't see anything in the FED rules that would prevent trying the same appeal twice...since the third baseman missed the ball no appeal was ever actually made...it was only attempted....even then, the rules say you can do "multiple" appeals, within reason, and doesn't qualify that about successive appeals like OBR does.

Beyond the issue of whether or not the second appeal is allowed, the runner is not allowed to try to correct his error once the ball is dead - for two reasons under "May Not Return".

ART. 6 . . . Appeal procedures and guidelines

a. Types

1. Missing a base

2. Leaving a base on a caught fly ball before the ball is first touched.

b. Live Ball. In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed or left too soon on a caught fly ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if he is still on the playing field.

c. Dead Ball. The dead-ball appeal may be made:

1) Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called, a coach or any defensive player, with or without the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. The administering umpire should then make a decision on the play.

2) If the ball has gone out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base-running responsibilities before the dead-ball appeal can be made.

d. May Not Return. A runner may not return to touch a missed base or one left too soon on a caught fly ball if:

1. he has reached a base beyond the base missed or left too soon and the ball becomes dead,

2. he has left the field of play, or

3. a following runner has scored.

e. Advance. Runners may advance during a live-ball appeal play. If a time out is requested for an appeal, the umpire should grant it, and runners may not advance until the ball becomes live again.

f. More Than One Appeal. Multiple appeals are permitted as long as they do not become a travesty of the game.

g. Awards. An appeal must be honored even if the base missed was before or after an award.

h. Tag-Ups. If a runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball and returns in an attempt to retag, this is considered a time play and not a force out. If the appeal is the third out, all runs scored by runners in advance of the appealed runner and scored ahead of the legal appeal would count.

i. Fourth-Out Appeal. An appeal may be made after the third out as long as it is made properly and the resulting appeal is an apparent fourth out.

j. End of Game. If any situation arises which could lead to an appeal by the defense on the last play of the game, the appeal must be made while an umpire is still on the field of play.

k. Third-out Baserunning Infraction. If a baserunning infraction is the third out, runs scored by the following runner(s) would not count. With two outs, if the base missed was the first to which the batter or runner was forced to advance, no runs would score. When a runner is legally returning after a fly ball has been caught, he can be put out by being tagged with the ball by a defensive player or merely by the defensive player with the ball touching the base occupied by the runner at the time of the pitch.

l. Last Time By. If a runner correctly touches a base that was missed (either in advancing or returning), the last time he was by the base, that last touch corrects any previous baserunning infraction.

[ousafe]

58 minutes ago, noumpere said:

seem to recall a case play or interp where FED still allows an appeal after an appeal is thrown out of play.  I am also away from my books

Looking at my books....I think this is 8.2.6 situation C. (attempt to double up R1 goes into dugout. Proper appeal still allowed.)

[SH0102]

You guys are describing live ball situations where a play was made and went out of play.  The question is whether a declared attempt at an appeal is thrown out of play....throwing to 1st to get batter and it goes out of play...yes, you can appeal he missed first after the fact.  But he missed first and is now standing on second, and pitcher throws to 1st to appeal and throws it into the dugout?  Completely different situation. 

And " multiple appeals" is not on the same runner at the same base, its for multiple infractions

[beerguy55]

24 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

You guys are describing live ball situations where a play was made and went out of play.  The question is whether a declared attempt at an appeal is thrown out of play....throwing to 1st to get batter and it goes out of play...yes, you can appeal he missed first after the fact.  But he missed first and is now standing on second, and pitcher throws to 1st to appeal and throws it into the dugout?  Completely different situation. 

An appeal is an appeal - doesn't matter if it happens naturally during the play, as an act at the end of the play when the ball is still live, as an act from the rubber on the very next play, or, in the case of FED/softball, during a dead ball - the rules don't differentiate on the consequences.   They are NOT different situations as far as the appeal is concerned...the only differentiator is what a runner can and can't do after the ball goes out of play.

Regardless, in the OP it was, presumably, an appeal play, F6 throwing the third to get the runner that left early.

By rule an appeal is NOT a play.

[noumpere]

23 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

By rule an appeal is NOT a play.

For OBR and NCAA, this is only for purposes of granting a subsequent appeal.

 FED has, I believe, defined it such that your statement is true.

For the OP, under FED rules:

2.29.6 SITUATION B: Following a base hit by B2, the visiting team wishes to appeal R1 missing third base as he advanced to home. After all playing action is over, the pitcher throws the ball to the third baseman while claiming that R1 missed the base. F5 is not watching and the throw goes into a dead-ball area.
RULING: After B2 has been awarded two bases, the visiting team may now verbally appeal R1's missed base. Because an appeal is not a play, the visiting team retains its ability to appeal the baserunning error.

[ousafe]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Last Time By. If a runner correctly touches a base that was missed (either in advancing or returning), the last time he was by the base, that last touch corrects any previous baserunning infraction.

For Fed there is a wrinkle on this that I ran across while looking up case plays. If the runner intentionally misses a base by a lot, to gain an advantage, his correction by touching the base on the way back (last time by) does not absolve him. He may still be successfully appealed. 8.2.6 Sit H.

[maven]

According to the BRD (2015):

• §6: for FED, the defense does NOT lose the right to appeal an infraction by throwing the ball out of play while appealing (8–2 PENALTY), but
• §15: during the ensuing dead-ball period, runners would have the opportunity to correct their error prior to the umpire ruling on the dead-ball appeal.

For the OP, since we're talking about R3, he would have the opportunity to return and retouch 3B ("tag up") during the dead ball, IF he had not entered the dugout (see 8-2-6d, "May Not Return").

[maven]

1 hour ago, ousafe said:

Looking at my books....I think this is 8.2.6 situation C. (attempt to double up R1 goes into dugout. Proper appeal still allowed.)

That's correct, although the inclusion of the player-speak term "double up" disguises the fact that F9's throw to 1B that goes into the dugout is indeed an attempt to appeal R1's failure to retouch. Thanks, FED.

14 minutes ago, ousafe said:

For Fed there is a wrinkle on this that I ran across while looking up case plays. If the runner intentionally misses a base by a lot, to gain an advantage, his correction by touching the base on the way back (last time by) does not absolve him. He may still be successfully appealed. 8.2.6 Sit H.

This post, while true enough, isn't relevant to the OP.

[agdz59]

This has been a great discussion and clarified how to think about leaving-too-soon. To make sure I'm understanding FED let me offer this:

R1. fly to F9 that is caught. I see R1 leave early. R1 almost gets to 2B but by then he's heard defensive coaches screaming "He left early!" "Throw it to first!", and returns without touching 2nd. 

The verbalization is not considered an appeal because the ball is still alive.

Now, before R1 touches 1B, F9 has thrown the ball out of play. 

I call time and award R1 3B. 

I believe there are 3 possible scenarios now: 

R1 touches 2B and 3B and then the defensive coaches or player tell me he missed first: Out. 

Same thing except nobody on defense says anything after R1 gets to 3rd. Consider that as no appeal and play on. Even if they DID say something before R1 gets to 3rd. (Because of clause c.2)

R1 retouches 1B and then proceeds to 2B and 3B. Now if there is a verbal appeal it doesn't matter because R1 corrected his error with the retouch.

And then, correct me if I am wrong, but if R1 had reached 2nd before the ball went out of play, he could NOT correct his error, right?

[noumpere]

6 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

And then, correct me if I am wrong, but if R1 had reached 2nd before the ball went out of play, he could NOT correct his error, right?

all correct except the above, depending a bit on what you mean by "reached second" -- if R1 reached second but retreated back past second toward first before the ball goes out of play, then he can correct his error..  If R1 is on or beyond second at the time the ball goes out of play (or after), he can not correct his error.  IF he goes back to retouch first, you let him, but if the defense appeals he is out.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, maven said:

For the OP, since we're talking about R3, he would have the opportunity to return and retouch 3B ("tag up") during the dead ball, IF he had not entered the dugout (see 8-2-6d, "May Not Return").

If he was past/beyond home, even without entering the dugout, he still wouldn't be able to correct his mistake, no?  Same rule - "reached a base beyond the base...left too soon".  I guess he could conceivably be "allowed" to touch home, touch third, and then touch home again...but still be subject to appeal. 

[BCBrad]

I apologize if I’m missing something but this is what I got. 

Ball caught by F6; R3 between 3rd and home when F6s throw goes out of play on the appeal of tag up. This to me is continuous action. 

R3 is awarded home. If R3 touches home, then the next base is touched and return to 3rd to tag up is no longer an option for R3. Appeal still available for defense upon the ball being put back in play.  

If R3 goes back and touches 3rd while ball is in dead, then touches home. All good. Nothing to appeal. 

I’m used to OBR, so I apologize for not talking about Fed, but we did talk about both. 

[Tborze]

19 hours ago, BCBrad said:

I apologize if I’m missing something but this is what I got. 

Ball caught by F6; R3 between 3rd and home when F6s throw goes out of play on the appeal of tag up. This to me is continuous action. 

R3 is awarded home. If R3 touches home, then the next base is touched and return to 3rd to tag up is no longer an option for R3. Appeal still available for defense upon the ball being put back in play.  

If R3 goes back and touches 3rd while ball is in dead, then touches home. All good. Nothing to appeal. 

I’m used to OBR, so I apologize for not talking about Fed, but we did talk about both. 

Are you asking about OBR?

FED allows for dead ball appeals, so putting the ball back in play is not necessary, but is an option. 

For OBR, an appeal is a play. Or, they count the err as one. Once the ball went OOP the defense has lost their right to appeal.  
 

 

[beerguy55]

3 minutes ago, Tborze said:

For OBR, an appeal is a play. Or, they count the err as one

In OBR, the appeal is not a play...they simply count throwing the ball out of play as the appeal and don't give you a second chance (ie. if you throw the ball down into the outfield corner the ball can still be retrieved and the appeal can still be completed).   If you do throw the ball out of play, you are still allowed to appeal a different runner/different base immediately after - because it's not considered a play.

[Jimurray]

5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

In OBR, the appeal is not a play...they simply count throwing the ball out of play as the appeal and don't give you a second chance (ie. if you throw the ball down into the outfield corner the ball can still be retrieved and the appeal can still be completed).   If you do throw the ball out of play, you are still allowed to appeal a different runner/different base immediately after - because it's not considered a play.

OBR doesn't allow any further appeals after the defense errs by throwing the ball out of play. That is considered a "play" according to PBUC/MLBUM

[beerguy55]

25 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

OBR doesn't allow any further appeals after the defense errs by throwing the ball out of play. That is considered a "play" according to PBUC/MLBUM

Interesting, because the rules specifically say, and are very explicit, in qualifying same runner/same base.  If the MLBUM says that IMO that's not a clarification/interpretation...that's an explicit conflict/contradiction of the rule book.

An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play.

Successive appeals may not be made on a runner at the same base. If the defensive team on its first appeal errs, a request for a second appeal on the same runner at the same base shall not be allowed by the umpire. (Intended meaning of the word “err” is that the defensive team in making an appeal threw the ball out of play. For example, if the pitcher threw to first base to appeal and threw the ball into the stands, no second appeal would be allowed.)

 

 

I can see the argument - the throw out of play is now a "play" - but, frankly, if that was the intent of the rule they could have simply said that in the first place...and IMO, they would have.   But that's why I guess they get the big bucks.

[Tborze]

4 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Interesting, because the rules specifically say, and are very explicit, in qualifying same runner/same base.  If the MLBUM says that IMO that's not a clarification/interpretation...that's an explicit conflict/contradiction of the rule book.

An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play.

Successive appeals may not be made on a runner at the same base. If the defensive team on its first appeal errs, a request for a second appeal on the same runner at the same base shall not be allowed by the umpire. (Intended meaning of the word “err” is that the defensive team in making an appeal threw the ball out of play. For example, if the pitcher threw to first base to appeal and threw the ball into the stands, no second appeal would be allowed.)

 

 

I can see the argument - the throw out of play is now a "play" - but, frankly, if that was the intent of the rule they could have simply said that in the first place...and IMO, they would have.   But that's why I guess they get the big bucks.

Coach, can I at least get a "like"?   I believe the "err" is relevant.