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Popped my 1st


ArchAngel72

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So 14-16U I believe Babe Ruth

2nd half of 1st inning HT SS wearing #7 come up and falls on a 3-2 curve ball that clipped the front out side corner of the plate easily that was just above knee high.  He goes off grumbling at me that was out side no way that was a strike and etc etc etc all the way to the dugout loud enough and louder as he goes so I can hear him clearly.

In between innings I see his coach and just casually say coach please speak to him. He’s very chippy about that last strike call I don’t want it to go further.

Just nice casual nothing harsh.

well bottom of 4 #7 had just pitched the top half of the inning and gotten at least 3 if not 4 of those calls with nearly the same curve over the front corner.He comes up again and works a 3-2 count Yep you guessed it curve over the corner I ring him up He expounds NO way, then that was outside and then draws a line over the lefty batters box line showing where HE thought the ball was.  

I give him the death stare as he walks away hoping I can burn a hole in the back of his head and what does he do. Casually turns and flips me off, Probably thought I was not watching him.

 

”#7 your gone!!” And I give a Trump like heave of a wave.

I say it again as I did not think he heard me. 

Then it hit the coach and only coach who is down at 3rd base box. He starts walking down What you thru him out for What? I tell him coach he just flipped me off. I hear over my shoulder “ No he didnt” from the fence.  Coach says “He drew a line in the dirt showing where he thought the ball was. “. 

Yep he did that’s showing up the ump, basically arguing balls and strikes but I ran him cause he gave me the bird.

Coach says Well that’s S%$T!  

Careful coach keep swearing at me and I’ll run you too. 

Coach says doesn’t matter games over now. 

Well you can play with 8 

Coach Nope I wont do that Cmon guys line up.

I turned and vacated the area. 

Not one of the parents NOR any of #7’s team mates said Anything.  They all saw him flip me off I know they did. 

So.. 

Did I kick anything?

At this point I have a call into my UiC and the President of the league to see what I need to do for any report if any.

 

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First, I'd lose the politicization of your action.  No matter which side of the former administration you fall on, referencing it involves a level of emotion that is contradictory with good officiating.   Similarly, the "death stare" is not something that should be employed.   Umpires should be stoic, unemotional, impartial arbiters of the game.

Having a coach state his case is one of those things that will happen, just state it didn't appear that way to your and go on.

Given the use of profanity \the warning would be, "Please, do not use profanity," followed by an ejection if there is one more profane word.

But other than that, I see nothing improper with the way you handled things. The above are merely suggestions for "next time."
 

 

 

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2 hours ago, flyingron said:

First, I'd lose the politicization of your action.  No matter which side of the former administration you fall on, referencing it involves a level of emotion that is contradictory with good officiating.   Similarly, the "death stare" is not something that should be employed.   Umpires should be stoic, unemotional, impartial arbiters of the game.

Having a coach state his case is one of those things that will happen, just state it didn't appear that way to your and go on.

Given the use of profanity \the warning would be, "Please, do not use profanity," followed by an ejection if there is one more profane word.

But other than that, I see nothing improper with the way you handled things. The above are merely suggestions for "next time."
 

 

 

He just said he gave him a Trump like heave of a wave. How is that politicizing it? He just described how it was done. I don't think he made a reference to Trump during the ejection. I don't think anyone could connect the dots, either. Doubt anyone said or thought, "Hey that motion looks like something Trump would do." I could be wrong, but I don't get a political reference when he did the ejection.

I've used the death stare on occasion with success. I only do it with my mask on, and only in certain situations. YMMV.

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@ArchAngel72, it all ended up in the right place, but as others said...your journey to the end point could have been shorter.

The death stare went out with Bill Klem. It's one thing to leave one's mask on and briefly stare into the dugout or at a coach or player. It lets them know they have your attention. But, prolonged staring? The umpire is being overly aggressive.

Drawing a line in the dirt or re-running over a base or the plate to try and demonstrate what THEY thought happened on the play? Or anything else that is directly disrespectful to an umpire? That's an ejection, regardless of their intent. I will allow for more grousing and grumbling as the players get older but, this was over the line...pardon the pun.

Last year, at the urging of a partner, I started using the phrase, "Coach/player...what do I have to do to keep you in this game today/tonight?" It is amazingly effective with youth players. But, as we see here sometimes players and coaches simply eject themselves. A good rule of thumb is...baseball is a game. Games are meant to be fun. When someone is making the game not fun, a warning or ejection is typically warranted.

And make sure you familiarize yourself with national and local rules for the leagues you work as many rule sets have different rules for ejecting managers, ejecting coaches and or ejecting players.

~Dawg

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Shut them down hard at that age level. In HS games if kids start arguing or discussing the strike zone i cut them off quick. They can ask me if thats the top, the bottom, where did that catch and I'll tell them. But they don't get to argue about the zone.

And the kid should have been gone the second his bat touched the dirt starting the line. Absolute mortal sin.

The coach is a rat for not shoving his foot up that kids behind for his behavior instead of gaslighting the umpire. Players tend to reflect their coach's attitude and feed off them and he is teaching them its ok to act that way.

File this one away in the memory banks for the next situation. It's how we get better.

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8 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

 

Last year, at the urging of a partner, I started using the phrase, "Coach/player...what do I have to do to keep you in this game today/tonight?"

I need to remember this.  Thanks.

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Thank you for the constructive criticism here guys, I do appreciate it.

 

I put this hear to listen/read and learn if I handled it correctly and or if I should have run him sooner.  As for the politicizing, it was not an attempt and pulling in politics it was merely a manner of discussing how or what my "toss" action looked like.

For the record I did leave my mask on up until I ran him.

I have discussed this with the VP of the league and also my UiC. They both approved my toss and the UiC told me he would file the report with the league based on my info.  The VP stated there will probably be at least a 1 game suspension for the player. 

I agree with the drawing the line thing was the tipping point. 

Having never had to bounce a player or coach before I was hesitant to do so at that point but the players mouth and actions had imho earned a trip to his parents car at that point already, I just did not have the fortitude to pull the trigger.

The quick wave behind him as he walked away with the finger up though. YEP that was the "CLICK"  and I sent him then. Going forward now I will know and understand not to tolerate that sort of "shenanigans" going forward. I never spoke to him prior to that and I looking thru these things probably should have said "Player that is enough" after his 1st pate appearance.

 

but live n learn

 

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9 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Last year, at the urging of a partner, I started using the phrase, "Coach/player...what do I have to do to keep you in this game today/tonight?" It is amazingly effective with youth players. But, as we see here sometimes players and coaches simply eject themselves. A good rule of thumb is...baseball is a game. Games are meant to be fun. When someone is making the game not fun, a warning or ejection is typically warranted.

If this works for you, no issues, but I'm not sure I agree with it.

IMO, it's not my job to keep anyone in the game. It's up to them to know the limits or learn the limits the hard way. This attitude of "trying to keep someone in the game" is a little too pervasive, particularly with newer umpires and younger age groups. It just kicks the can down the road for the next umpire.

I used to be of that frame of mind when I first started umpiring. You know what the end result was? I missed a lot of ejections that could have solved bad behavior a lot sooner. I'm sure I made it harder on other umpires, too.

Now, I just don't give a crap for a variety of reasons. I don't take any guff, and I'm not going to at any level. If they have to go, they have to go. Not my job to keep them in the game.

You only regret the ejections you didn't do.

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17 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

IMO, it's not my job to keep anyone in the game. It's up to them to know the limits or learn the limits the hard way. This attitude of "trying to keep someone in the game" is a little too pervasive, particularly with newer umpires and younger age groups. It just kicks the can down the road for the next umpire.

I agree, although it's not just new or young umpires who believe this--it's also umpires who don't like confrontation, who want everyone to like them or who want to avoid anything smelling of controversy.

On the other hand, particularly with younger kids and depending on the severity of the offense, "what do I have to do..." can have a therapeutic, lesson-learning effect. 

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32 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

If this works for you, no issues, but I'm not sure I agree with it.

IMO, it's not my job to keep anyone in the game. It's up to them to know the limits or learn the limits the hard way. 

I don't interpret that question that way at all.  It's a way of telling the player/coach 1) they are being warned and 2) what are they going to do to change their behavior.  I like the way it turns it around from MY decision to THEIR decision.

Our association head says "You guys don't eject anybody - let them eject themselves."  IOW - don't go looking for / initiating trouble, let the players and coaches actions cause the trouble.  I see "What do I have to do to keep you in the game" as the same thing.  Though maybe "What are you going to do..." might be better?

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2 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

Though maybe "What are you going to do..." might be better?

That to me seems more antagonizing than, What do I have to do to keep you in the game.  Least the way you laid it out, thats how I would take it.

 

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32 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

If this works for you, no issues, but I'm not sure I agree with it.

IMO, it's not my job to keep anyone in the game. It's up to them to know the limits or learn the limits the hard way. This attitude of "trying to keep someone in the game" is a little too pervasive, particularly with newer umpires and younger age groups. It just kicks the can down the road for the next umpire.

I used to be of that frame of mind when I first started umpiring. You know what the end result was? I missed a lot of ejections that could have solved bad behavior a lot sooner. I'm sure I made it harder on other umpires, too.

Now, I just don't give a crap for a variety of reasons. I don't take any guff, and I'm not going to at any level. If they have to go, they have to go. Not my job to keep them in the game.

You only regret the ejections you didn't do.

Cat, I got you...100%. I suspect we have both seen umpiring change quite a bit in our time. I remember when I was a teenager starting out and my UIC actually ripped me in the parking lot after a game for not ejecting a coach. And I quote, "You can NOT allow that on YOUR field! When you allow that on YOUR field, you are sending a message to that coach that he can now do that on ALL of our (umpires) fields! If I ever see you do that again, you are done for the season!" My UIC was the greatest umpire I have ever seen. Not surprisingly like so many of our best he was retired military...a Marine combat veteran of the Korean War. He stung me bad that day but, a big part of who I am as an umpire is from his tutelage. He would never say so of course, but many of my peers told me then if he didn't care, he wouldn't have chewed me out.

Nowadays, it's a different time...my association has given us specific instructions with respect to ejections. Magic words and phrases still exist and should be acted upon but, our direction is...keep managers in the game when and where we can, less so with assistant coaches and players.

~Dawg

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53 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

If this works for you, no issues, but I'm not sure I agree with it.

IMO, it's not my job to keep anyone in the game. It's up to them to know the limits or learn the limits the hard way. This attitude of "trying to keep someone in the game" is a little too pervasive, particularly with newer umpires and younger age groups. It just kicks the can down the road for the next umpire.

I used to be of that frame of mind when I first started umpiring. You know what the end result was? I missed a lot of ejections that could have solved bad behavior a lot sooner. I'm sure I made it harder on other umpires, too.

Now, I just don't give a crap for a variety of reasons. I don't take any guff, and I'm not going to at any level. If they have to go, they have to go. Not my job to keep them in the game.

You only regret the ejections you didn't do.

I agree...and again, to each their own.  I have not had many ejections in many years of umpiring, so I am far from an expert, but I just don't understand the putting it on us.  Saying "what do I have to do" is basically saying it's on you (umpire) when the exact opposite is true.

I would rather say "what are you going to tell your kid to make sure he doesn't get ejected" if you really want to go that route.

Perhaps I am spoiled by the super simplistic NCAA route....warn and eject, warning should include "if you continue, you will be ejected".

There is zero room for misinterpretation and if someone gets tossed after that, no one can say anything about the umpire.

I just don't understand the staring, threatening, "care to repeat that" stuff....had enough?  Warn them.  They don't stop, goodbye.  Simple

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8 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

keep managers in the game when and where we can, less so with assistant coaches and players.

Interesting perspective. I find that odd, privileging (as they say these days) managers over players. Working HS age and younger, as I do, I'd be more inclined to keep players around than managers, who can be replaced by their assistants.

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4 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Perhaps I am spoiled by the super simplistic NCAA route....warn and eject, warning should include "if you continue, you will be ejected".

 

Ok now this looks like the way I will move.  I like that direct and unmistakable, It also puts it all right back on them. "If YOU continue, YOU will be ejected"

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I'm not opposed to using coaches to rein in players, but I don't think your request was timed properly. It was a one-off incident at that point that had passed, and asking for help with that player comes off as holding on to that confrontation.

I agree with just about everything else you've received here.

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3 minutes ago, Matt said:

I'm not opposed to using coaches to rein in players

This is a good point to emphasize, as it highlights the value of preventive officiating. In appropriate situations, one version is this: "[Coach's name], are you going to take care of that or will I?"

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2 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

You only regret the ejections you didn't do.

Truer words have never been spoken. Everyone here has been driving home kicking themselves for not dumping an obnoxious coach.

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1 hour ago, LRZ said:

Interesting perspective. I find that odd, privileging (as they say these days) managers over players. Working HS age and younger, as I do, I'd be more inclined to keep players around than managers, who can be replaced by their assistants.

The explanation being look at Fed rules...there's all kinds of words and phrases and clauses pertaining to the warnings, restrictions and ejections of managers. Not so for players and assistants.

~Dawg

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8 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Truer words have never been spoken. Everyone here has been driving home kicking themselves for not dumping an obnoxious coach.

And I have yet to meet an umpire who drove home kicking themselves for dumping an obnoxious coach too early.

~Dawg

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Drawing a line is one of those actions that warrants an immediate ejection...even without any prior warnings.  It is a "skip go, don't collect $200, go straight to jail," offense.  This is true at the major league level, it is true at the little league level, and it is true at every level in between. 

So, we can debate warnings all day.  But, the player should have been EJ'd the second he drew a line.  There was absolutely no need to wait until he flipped you the bird before you ejected him.  

However, as for warnings, as I posted in the other thread that is currently on-going in the "Ejections" section of U-E, I like the simple, "this is your warning.  If you continue to argue you will be ejected (or restricted)."  You can see my post in the other thread as to why I like this warning the best.

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4 hours ago, LRZ said:

This is a good point to emphasize, as it highlights the value of preventive officiating. In appropriate situations, one version is this: "[Coach's name], are you going to take care of that or will I?"

Talking ejections with my LL UIC the other day, his first (and only in fact) was a player throwing down their helmet after getting rung up. He peeked up at the coach in a "you or me?" look, coach gives a little loop with the finger; okie-dokie, boom. (Not looking to debate the look/auto/etc. Just a funny interchange).

I've never had one and only have one I regret not doing (I was still a noob). I went pure ignore. It would be different today.

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1 hour ago, lawump said:

Drawing a line is one of those actions that warrants an immediate ejection...even without any prior warnings.  It is a "skip go, don't collect $200, go straight to jail," offense.  This is true at the major league level, it is true at the little league level, and it is true at every level in between. 

Don't disagree. Drawing the line is a specific f-u action. 

A close cousin though that I witnessed as a parent does maybe allow all age to be considered in some cases:

14U, Jr Olympic identifier series in Phoenix. Outside pitch for a strike. Batter extends bat in half swing to the location of the pitch. HORRIBLE look and the ump lit him up (no ejection but a verbal ass chewing). Context the ump did not have (my son's team so I know this kid): He was not purposefully showing up the ump. He was simply not baseball savvy (13yr old, inexperienced). He was saying to himself "ok, that' a strike. how do I reach it?". One could argue this is how the kid can learn but it felt harsh. Just sharing as food for thought for folks.

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Balls and strikes are a no-no at all levels.  As an umpire you have to stop it immediately, if not before. We can all think back on games where a coach started in on balls/strikes.  Before no time at all then the fans, then the kids and you have a complaint after every pitch from both sides...because you (and me) let happen.

I put an end to this about my third year--yeah it took me that long as I'm not to smart.  But now, any coach I have had in the past is dead quiet on balls/strikes.

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