catcher position

[Guest Backstop]

Does the catcher absolutely have to set up behind the plate, or can he be in the field of play?

[maven]

Hard to catch the pitch there. Why?

[The Man in Blue]

NFHS

Rule 1 Players, Field and Equipment

SECTION 1 POSITIONS OF PLAYERS

ART. 4 . . . At the time of the pitch, all fielders shall be on fair ground except the catcher who shall be in the catcher's box. A fielder is in fair ground when at least one foot is touching fair ground.

 

Rule 2 Playing Terms and Definitions
SECTION 9 CATCH, CATCHER, CATCHER’S BOX
ART. 3 . . . The catcher’s box is an area 43 inches by 8 feet. See official measurements in Diagram 2.

 

OBR

 

[ArchAngel72]

what level of rules ?

But I believe LL follows the same as posted for OBR

There is supposed to be  lines for the catchers box and they are to be within that prior to release of the ball on a pitch.  If they are out side that line its a illegal pitch in LL (Major/Minor) and then thus a ball.

 

So this brought up an interesting question.  

If someone wanted to intentionally walk someone they had already thrown one pitch to.* They could put the catcher out side the catchers box and have him catch 3 pitches thus all being illegal pitches and then balls. 

* LL rule they can be intentionally walked if NO pitches have been thrown to them, BUT if a pitch has been thrown they have to actually throw the remaining pitches to make 4 balls.  ( Dumb rule # 1230725) 

So with regards to what I mentioned.  I was informed this type of play ( repeatedly bending a rule ) is considered "making a travesty of the game"  and thus after the 1st time it happens you tell the catcher do not do that again please stay within the catchers box before the pitch is thrown.  then if the coach tells him ignore it and he does it again the coach if he said something about it and the catcher both get warnings that this wont be tolerated again and they will be tossed if further actions like that occur.

LOL yeah..  like after the thing I saw in Bristol where a kid signalling the batter was not tossed I'm gonna toss someone for standing out side of a line.  Sigh.. 

 

From the 2018 LL Rules instruction manual 

8.05 – With a runner or runners on base, it is an illegal pitch – Major/Minor League [a balk in Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior League] when -

(k) the pitcher, while giving an intentional base on balls, pitches when the catcher is not in the catcher’s box

 

PENALTY FOR AN ILLEGAL PITCH: Little League (Major)/Minor League: The ball is dead and no runners will advance. The pitch shall be called a ball even if the pitch is not actually thrown. EXCEPTION: If the pitch is delivered and a play follows the illegal pitch, the play shall be allowed to continue as a delayed dead ball. Upon completion of the play, the manager of the offense may advise the plate umpire of a decision to decline the illegal pitch penalty and accept the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter hits the ball and reaches first base safely, and if all base-runners advance at least one base on the action resulting from the batted ball, the play proceeds without reference to the illegal pitch. When an illegal pitch is called, regardless of whether the pitch is completed or not by the pitcher, a pitch will always be charged to the pitcher’s pitch count. (Rule 2.00 Definitions: Pitch) NOTE: Under no circumstances shall a balk be called in Little League (Major) or Minor League.

 

 

[Rich Ives]

45 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

If someone wanted to intentionally walk someone they had already thrown one pitch to.* They could put the catcher out side the catchers box and have him catch 3 pitches thus all being illegal pitches and then balls. 

Just throw three balls out of the strike zone.   

And have you ever seen the LL catcher's box for majors and below?

Finally - no one anywhere enforces the "pitch released" part of the rule - they all call it on TOP.

[Jimurray]

49 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

what level of rules ?

But I believe LL follows the same as posted for OBR

There is supposed to be  lines for the catchers box and they are to be within that prior to release of the ball on a pitch.  If they are out side that line its a illegal pitch in LL (Major/Minor) and then thus a ball.

 

So this brought up an interesting question.  

If someone wanted to intentionally walk someone they had already thrown one pitch to.* They could put the catcher out side the catchers box and have him catch 3 pitches thus all being illegal pitches and then balls. 

* LL rule they can be intentionally walked if NO pitches have been thrown to them, BUT if a pitch has been thrown they have to actually throw the remaining pitches to make 4 balls.  ( Dumb rule # 1230725) 

So with regards to what I mentioned.  I was informed this type of play ( repeatedly bending a rule ) is considered "making a travesty of the game"  and thus after the 1st time it happens you tell the catcher do not do that again please stay within the catchers box before the pitch is thrown.  then if the coach tells him ignore it and he does it again the coach if he said something about it and the catcher both get warnings that this wont be tolerated again and they will be tossed if further actions like that occur.

LOL yeah..  like after the thing I saw in Bristol where a kid signalling the batter was not tossed I'm gonna toss someone for standing out side of a line.  Sigh.. 

 

From the 2018 LL Rules instruction manual 

8.05 – With a runner or runners on base, it is an illegal pitch – Major/Minor League [a balk in Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior League] when -

(k) the pitcher, while giving an intentional base on balls, pitches when the catcher is not in the catcher’s box

 

PENALTY FOR AN ILLEGAL PITCH: Little League (Major)/Minor League: The ball is dead and no runners will advance. The pitch shall be called a ball even if the pitch is not actually thrown. EXCEPTION: If the pitch is delivered and a play follows the illegal pitch, the play shall be allowed to continue as a delayed dead ball. Upon completion of the play, the manager of the offense may advise the plate umpire of a decision to decline the illegal pitch penalty and accept the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter hits the ball and reaches first base safely, and if all base-runners advance at least one base on the action resulting from the batted ball, the play proceeds without reference to the illegal pitch. When an illegal pitch is called, regardless of whether the pitch is completed or not by the pitcher, a pitch will always be charged to the pitcher’s pitch count. (Rule 2.00 Definitions: Pitch) NOTE: Under no circumstances shall a balk be called in Little League (Major) or Minor League.

 

 

Before MLB/OBR was changed to allow walks to be awarded without pitches most umpires would not be looking to call a balk for the catcher out of the box. In fact there was instruction to allow the catcher out of the box at TOP as opposed to release of pitch and even then it was instructed to only call it if the catcher was trying to gain an advantage on a stealing runner and exited the box by a large amount. 

At Majors and below the LL box is actually the old style triangle and it's unlikely a catcher would be out of the triangle. As a side note most catchers are outside the triangle on the back side because LL got their geometry wrong and the back line of their triangle is closer than 8' to the back of the plate.

 

[ArchAngel72]

 Says 9 feet but that's on the diagonal  So its probably not 8 feet.

 

Anyway Yes I have seen LL fields with them and have seen Umpires chat with catchers about being in them specifically that back line.

 

My whole pt about the tangent with this observation is that as the rule sits if 1 pitch has been thrown the remaining proper throws for a walk must be thrown.  Its ridiculous when they already allow intentional walks.  But back to it.  yeah coach tell your kid to throw 4 dirt balls out a foot in front of the plate.  course you don't want to do that if there is someone on third or any base for that matter.

but also yes I have seen umpires correct a kid that was standing out side the catchers box before the pitch and direct them to get into it. They were standing with a righty batter on the outside of the lefty batters box practically beside it.

 

 

 

[Rich Ives]

9 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

.  But back to it.  yeah coach tell your kid to throw 4 dirt balls out a foot in front of the plate.  course you don't want to do that if there is someone on third or any base for that matter.

 

You don't need to throw dirt balls., You just need to lob it a foot  or two outside. 

Some of your responses make me wonder how much experience you have with the game.,

[ArchAngel72]

Just now, Rich Ives said:

 

You don't need to throw dirt balls., You just need to lob it a foot  or two outside. 

Some of your responses make me wonder how much experience you have with the game.,

I get that you need to throw it a foot or two outside but per the rules the catcher needs to be in the box before the pitch is released  RIGHT?

 

My experience is played LL BabeRuth then Sr BabeRuth then Legion 

and Now I have umped after watching the Sox win 04, 07,13 and I was umping when the won in 18

but I started umping in 17 

 

but you completely MISSED my point you all are ok with the catcher standing outside the box  I was trying to suggest a simple way for the Pitcher to toss a ball without worrying about the catcher getting called on being outside the catchers box.

 

[ArchAngel72]

8 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

 

You don't need to throw dirt balls., You just need to lob it a foot  or two outside. 

Some of your responses make me wonder how much experience you have with the game.,

 

Some of your responses I wonder why you make it so personal when someone is thinking "outside of the box"

[MadMax]

I love this. We’re presented an incomplete, vague question, with no following details from the OP, and we (collectively) launch right into Rules citations.

We don’t even know which Ruleset to cite from! (Rawr! Cite from ‘em all! Word vomit!)

I’m in @maven’s camp on this one... pointless to discuss – much less argue – until we have more details.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 Says 9 feet but that's on the diagonal  So its probably not 8 feet.

 

Anyway Yes I have seen LL fields with them and have seen Umpires chat with catchers about being in them specifically that back line.

 

 

 

 

It's a little over 6 feet on a baseball field and no ump should be concerned about where the catcher is regarding the back line since it is in the wrong place. BTW, that's a softball diagram but the triangle dimensions would be the same on a BB field. Can't get rid of this highlighting.

[Jimurray]

The story behind the triangle/trapezoid: 
https://umpire-empire.com/topic/69382-when-was-catchers-box-shape-changed/?tab=comments#comment-341007

And why the 9' extension of the foul lines is wrong:

 

[ArchAngel72]

On 10/14/2019 at 3:10 PM, Jimurray said:

It's a little over 6 feet on a baseball field and no ump should be concerned about where the catcher is regarding the back line since it is in the wrong place. BTW, that's a softball diagram but the triangle dimensions would be the same on a BB field. Can't get rid of this highlighting.

Softball diagram .. hmm  Well Damn it.. Yep had my Kindle set to be open for the Red manual.  FARK!   I thought those boxes looked long in the front... 

Well here is the 2019 Green Book same section 1 graphic. The length of line is still the same.

 

Well I do not get it why is the 9 foot length "Wrong"  its in the book and well them's the rules..

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jimurray]

27 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Softball diagram .. hmm  Well Damn it.. Yep had my Kindle set to be open for the Red manual.  FARK!   I thought those boxes looked long in the front... 

Well here is the 2019 Green Book same section 1 graphic. The length of line is still the same.

 

Well I do not get it why is the 9 foot length "Wrong"  its in the book and well them's the rules..

 

 

 

 

 

It's wrong because most catchers don't fit in it as seen in the pic. The direct distance from the point of the plate is a little over 6 feet. As stated in the thread about the origin of the triangle that distance was finally determined to be 8 feet, the same as the back line of the current box. While I've never seen a PONY field use it they do have the option and position the back line at 8 feet and then extend the foul lines to the back line:

"I. By local option the catcher’s box may be rectangular in shape, 43 inches (1.09m) wide  and eight feet (2.44m) deep from the point of home plate or it may be triangular  shape, extended eight feet (2.44m) from the rear of home plate, being a continuation  of the foul lines in which case the line closest to the backstop shall be 16 feet (4.88m)  in length."

That makes the extension of the fouls lines about 11.31 feet. But this should be just an academic exercise. I can't believe you have umps concerned with the catchers location in regard to the back line.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. ArchAngel72, your what-if scenario is not considered by Little League to be making a travesty of the game—it is considered to be an intentional delay of game as evidenced by 2019 LL rule 8.02(b) and its corresponding instructor’s comment from the Rules Instruction Manual—

2019 LL RIM rule 8.02(b) the pitcher shall not…Intentionally delay the game by throwing the ball to players other than the catcher, when the batter is in position, except in an attempt to retire a runner, or commit an illegal pitch for the purpose of not pitching to the batter (i.e. intentional walk, etc.)

INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

 "... or commit an illegal pitch for the purpose of not pitching to the batter (i.e. intentional walk, etc.)”, was added to prevent managers from instructing their pitchers to just drop the ball or start and stop their motion to get the umpire to call an illegal pitch four times thus not requiring the pitcher to throw four pitches to give a batter an intentional walk. Warn the manager that he/she should stop the pitcher from doing this and send the manager home if the pitcher continues to try to beat the rules.

PENALTY: If, after warning by the umpire, such delaying action is repeated, the pitcher can be removed from the game.

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  For repeated offenses by the same pitcher for the purpose of issuing an intentional walk, the umpire may eject the pitcher from the game.

[The Man in Blue]

Kind of funny that an action that takes less time is considered a delay.  

[beerguy55]

On 10/12/2019 at 8:41 PM, maven said:

Hard to catch the pitch there. Why?

 

19 hours ago, MadMax said:

I love this. We’re presented an incomplete, vague question, with no following details from the OP, and we (collectively) launch right into Rules citations.

We don’t even know which Ruleset to cite from! (Rawr! Cite from ‘em all! Word vomit!)

I’m in @maven’s camp on this one... pointless to discuss – much less argue – until we have more details.

To have an extra fielder - Atlantic League aside, it would be done with less than three balls or two strikes and no runners...the pitcher can go get his pitches...and in most places there are provisions that have ball boys or ODB's retrieve the ball in those scenarios.

With all the shifting that goes on these days, from pitch to pitch, if the rules allowed it I'd put my catcher in the field in certain scenarios.   Until you prove to me you can consistently bunt to a place that F1, F3 or F5 can't make the play.

 

And in Slow Pitch - since there are no steals, wild pitches or passed balls you could put an extra fielder somewhere almost all game long, and just have the pitcher go retrieve his pitches.  Pitcher could cover the plate on most plays...you would put your catcher behind the plate with a runner on third.

But as far as I know all rule sets require the catcher behind the plate at TOP...even in Slow Pitch.

[ArchAngel72]

17 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. ArchAngel72, your what-if scenario is not considered by Little League to be making a travesty of the game—it is considered to be an intentional delay of game as evidenced by 2019 LL rule 8.02(b) and its corresponding instructor’s comment from the Rules Instruction Manual—

2019 LL RIM rule 8.02(b) the pitcher shall not…Intentionally delay the game by throwing the ball to players other than the catcher, when the batter is in position, except in an attempt to retire a runner, or commit an illegal pitch for the purpose of not pitching to the batter (i.e. intentional walk, etc.)

INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

 "... or commit an illegal pitch for the purpose of not pitching to the batter (i.e. intentional walk, etc.)”, was added to prevent managers from instructing their pitchers to just drop the ball or start and stop their motion to get the umpire to call an illegal pitch four times thus not requiring the pitcher to throw four pitches to give a batter an intentional walk. Warn the manager that he/she should stop the pitcher from doing this and send the manager home if the pitcher continues to try to beat the rules.

PENALTY: If, after warning by the umpire, such delaying action is repeated, the pitcher can be removed from the game.

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  For repeated offenses by the same pitcher for the purpose of issuing an intentional walk, the umpire may eject the pitcher from the game.

My "what if" situation is meant to show if a player is repeatedly bending a rule for gain, Ie. If a runner continues to take a lead or start to run early from a base even after warned, they are breaking the rule for gainful purpose and making a "travesty of the game".  I'm researching where I saw that in the book I will have it here in a few minutes.  But my point was they can be ejected for that "reason"

Personally like The man in Blue stated, I do not see it as a delay either, they are actually speeding up the process or keeping it at the same pace. 

In the end my point is really this  Change the damn catchers box and adopt a intentional walk that can occur with a 1-0 or 0-1 count or better.   

 

[ArchAngel72]

I have not found it yet still looking

 

but 4.15  A game may be forfeited by the Umpire-in-Chief of the game in progress to the opposing team when a team-

e. after warning by the umpire, willfully and persistently violates any rules of the game;

f. employs tactics designed to delay, shorten or make a travesty of the game.

 

that's actually a bit stronger than ejecting a player..  I'm gonna keep searching.

 

 

[Aging_Arbiter]

11 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Ie. If a runner continues to take a lead or start to run early from a base even after warned, they are breaking the rule for gainful purpose and making a "travesty of the game". 

With this description, a conclusion can be drawn that you are referring to Majors and below.  Given the age group, if the player "continues" to do this after being warned, then I'm warning the adult base coach.  That ADULT is the one telling the player to do it.  I'm ejecting a coach before a player in this scenario.

 

[ArchAngel72]

3 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

With this description, a conclusion can be drawn that you are referring to Majors and below.  Given the age group, if the player "continues" to do this after being warned, then I'm warning the adult base coach.  That ADULT is the one telling the player to do it.  I'm ejecting a coach before a player in this scenario.

 

Well it would be easier to understand that with a 2 man crew or better but If I warn the kid and the base coach and the base coach says to me after I did not tell him to go again .  Its not the base coach I'm tossing at that point. Specially if I did not observe him gesturing or saying "run run Timmy"

Actually had a coach eject himself for an argument with the other coach and he dropped the F bomb cause the kid on 3rd took off on a past ball for home when his team was up by 12 already.  Coach never told him to run. the kid was excited and did it himself. 

 

[Aging_Arbiter]

...........and the inmates run the asylum.   The coach is in charge, not the player.  If he cannot tell his player to STOP breaking the rule, and get him to comply, I'm starting with the coach.

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

 

To have an extra fielder - Atlantic League aside, it would be done with less than three balls or two strikes and no runners...the pitcher can go get his pitches...and in most places there are provisions that have ball boys or ODB's retrieve the ball in those scenarios.

With all the shifting that goes on these days, from pitch to pitch, if the rules allowed it I'd put my catcher in the field in certain scenarios.   Until you prove to me you can consistently bunt to a place that F1, F3 or F5 can't make the play.

 

And in Slow Pitch - since there are no steals, wild pitches or passed balls you could put an extra fielder somewhere almost all game long, and just have the pitcher go retrieve his pitches.  Pitcher could cover the plate on most plays...you would put your catcher behind the plate with a runner on third.

But as far as I know all rule sets require the catcher behind the plate at TOP...even in Slow Pitch.

 

Wait a minute, I thought this was about intentional walks ... are you pulling the goalie!?

[beerguy55]

1 minute ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

Wait a minute, I thought this was about intentional walks ... are you pulling the goalie!?

How is this about intentional walks?  I'm answering a specific question that was asked...I'm not addressing all the hypotheticals that have nothing to do with the OP.

 

 

[ArchAngel72]

18 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

...........and the inmates run the asylum.   The coach is in charge, not the player.  If he cannot tell his player to STOP breaking the rule, and get him to comply, I'm starting with the coach.

So wait a minute little Jimmy disobeys his coach and you penalize the coach?

Nope Jimmy is gone