Bounced Pitch Tipped into Catcher's Mitt

[VolUmp]

Last night I had two firsts.  No real arguments ensued, just several questions.

AmLegion Game (Seniors) which basically play by American League rules.

R3.  2 Outs.  2 Strikes on batter, pitch bounces, batter swings and tips it into F2's mitt.  I signaled "tip" and called, "BATTER's OUT!"

Defensive Coach was yelling, "Tag him ... Throw to first!!"  F2 threw to F3 well ahead of the B-R, but my partner made no call.

R3, in the meantime, sprinted toward home and I called, "TIME!" to stop his momentum and prevent a play.

DHC came out rather annoyed and said, ""That pitch bounced ... you can't call him out until F2 tags him, right?  Or throws him out at 1B?"

I explained that what actually happened was a foul tip ... not an U3K.  I gave him the analogy that it's perfectly legit for a batter to hit a bounced pitch for a base hit.

In this case, he tipped it and was, therefore, immediately called out for strike 3.  My partner made no call at 1B since he knew the half-inning was over.

I'm not asking anything about the rule ... I'm asking if I should have handled this any differently to quell the confusion.

Also, should my partner have made a (pointless) out call at 1B just to kill the action?

[Mister B]

"Batter's out! He's out! He's still out!" 

[Rich Ives]

No reason to call time.

[scrounge]

1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

No reason to call time.

It certainly doesn't hurt, especially if they panic and try to make a play on R3 and something unnecessary ensues.

I have no problem with how it was handled.

[umpstu]

21 minutes ago, scrounge said:

It certainly doesn't hurt, especially if they panic and try to make a play on R3 and something unnecessary ensues.

I have no problem with how it was handled.

Same here.

 

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, scrounge said:

It certainly doesn't hurt, especially if they panic and try to make a play on R3 and something unnecessary ensues.

Too bad for them. No different than throwing to 1B on an unnecessary U3K  non=play.

[beerguy55]

2 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Too bad for them. No different than throwing to 1B on an unnecessary U3K  non=play.

The difference is this was the third out, where any further action is unnecessary, no longer part of the game, and the only thing that happens is people get hurt.

First or second out, you need to let the play continue - it's on the DHC for creating the confusion, and if R3 scores that's on him.   

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

No reason to call time.

"Time" becomes a universal catch-all attention getter. It never ceases to amaze me the amount of times coaches ask for Time to be called, and the number of partner umpires who audibly call it... after "Time" has just been called mere seconds ago on such a live-ball-killing event as HBP, Foul ball, or a ball has rolled into DBT.

[KenBAZ]

"Time" becomes a universal catch-all attention getter. It never ceases to amaze me the amount of times coaches ask for Time to be called, and the number of partner umpires who audibly call it... after "Time" has just been called mere seconds ago on such a live-ball-killing event as HBP, Foul ball, or a ball has rolled into DBT.

"Coach, time is already out." The other thing I love is base coaches instructing their base runners to call time. "Coach, he can ask for time."

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

[beerguy55]

Just now, KenBAZ said:

"Coach, time is already out." The other thing I love is base coaches instructing their base runners to call time. "Coach, he can ask for time."

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
 

I had a coach who thought you just needed to call time when touching the bag, and that at that point it must be granted.   So, he had this scheme to not slide into bases - run full speed into third base, and then as the player touched third he would call "time!", not understanding why his player was out after he overran the bag and was tagged.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

The difference is this was the third out, where any further action is unnecessary, no longer part of the game, and the only thing that happens is people get hurt.

First or second out, you need to let the play continue - it's on the DHC for creating the confusion, and if R3 scores that's on him.   

I was usually too busy yelling "that's three" to hear what the umpires were doing, but I think that would be  a better thing to be yelling.

[Aging_Arbiter]

58 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I had a coach who thought you just needed to call time when touching the bag, and that at that point it must be granted.   So, he had this scheme to not slide into bases - run full speed into third base, and then as the player touched third he would call "time!", not understanding why his player was out after he overran the bag and was tagged.

slight hijack.............had a game yesterday where player slid into 3rd on a ball to the gap, ball comes in and runner asks for time.  I ask, are you hurt?  Runner says no, I say climb the ladder.  Next at bat, he slid into 3rd again, looked up at me and caught himself...............I know, climb the ladder......

[Stk004]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

"Time" becomes a universal catch-all attention getter. It never ceases to amaze me the amount of times coaches ask for Time to be called, and the number of partner umpires who audibly call it... after "Time" has just been called mere seconds ago on such a live-ball-killing event as HBP, Foul ball, or a ball has rolled into DBT.

*HBP*

DHC: Time blue? 

Me: Yeah you got it. 

I've probably had this exchange 15 times this season. I know time has already been called, and I could explain it to the coach if I really wanted to, but I'll save my breath for when his pitcher balks or we have obstruction and then an explanation is actually needed. 

[kylehutson]

2 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

*HBP*

DHC: Time blue? 

Me: Yeah you got it. 

I've probably had this exchange 15 times this season. I know time has already been called, and I could explain it to the coach if I really wanted to, but I'll save my breath for when his pitcher balks or we have obstruction and then an explanation is actually needed. 

Same here.

[scrounge]

 

 

13 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

16 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

*HBP*

DHC: Time blue? 

Me: Yeah you got it. 

I've probably had this exchange 15 times this season. I know time has already been called, and I could explain it to the coach if I really wanted to, but I'll save my breath for when his pitcher balks or we have obstruction and then an explanation is actually needed. 

Same here.

Thrice here

[beerguy55]

19 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

*HBP*

DHC: Time blue? 

Me: Yeah you got it. 

I've probably had this exchange 15 times this season. I know time has already been called, and I could explain it to the coach if I really wanted to, but I'll save my breath for when his pitcher balks or we have obstruction and then an explanation is actually needed. 

I have done this, even knowing the ball is dead, to indicate to Blue that I'm going to talk to my pitcher.  Never really considered if I should just walk out there without saying anything - "time" was more my way of saying "is it ok if I go have a conference?"

[Gfoley4]

27 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

*HBP*

DHC: Time blue? 

Me: Yeah you got it. 

I've probably had this exchange 15 times this season. I know time has already been called, and I could explain it to the coach if I really wanted to, but I'll save my breath for when his pitcher balks or we have obstruction and then an explanation is actually needed. 

yep, happens all the time. Or first base coach wants time for his runner to "walk it off" after a HBP. Do whatever man, nothing can happen to your runner! Of course the worst part about these situations is when your partner immediately comes up with "TIME!"

[VolUmp]

7 hours ago, Stk004 said:

*HBP*   DHC: Time blue?    Me: Yeah you got it. 

Stk004, Perfect way to handle it ... and the similar 10 scenarios where calling time during a dead ball is redundant.

Coaches and players don't have to know everything that we know, and shouldn't be punished for it.

They should not, however, come barking and yelling and screaming first and asking questions later.

Here's my favorite, though:  Batter fouls off the pitch ... ball rolls to where F3 can field it ... F3 overthrows the return to F1 and the runners take off with the coaches screaming, "GO!!!"

[Richvee]

Am I missing something here?? This is NOT a foul tip.

5.05(a)

(3) If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the
strike zone it is a “ball.” If such a pitch touches the batter,
he shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such
a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the
purposes of Rule 5.05(b) and 5.09(a)(3).

[VolUmp]

48 minutes ago, Richvee said:

If the batter swings at such
a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the
purposes of Rule 5.05(b) and 5.09(a)(3).

Yes -- you are missing that there is a flaw in this statement which doesn't take into consideration the possibility that the batter makes contact.
All it's saying is if the pitch bounces, it is an U3K.  Even after overhauling the OBR book, they can't get it right.

I've listened to dissertations about this interp ... that if the pitch bounces, batter swings, and makes contact, it's like the pitch never bounced.

[beerguy55]

8 hours ago, Richvee said:

Am I missing something here?? This is NOT a foul tip.

5.05(a)

(3) If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the
strike zone it is a “ball.” If such a pitch touches the batter,
he shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such
a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the
purposes of Rule 5.05(b) and 5.09(a)(3).

I don't know about "for the purposes of rule 5.05(b)" - I think 5.05(a)(2) makes more sense.

Regardless, this rule appears to specifically address uncaught third strike.

This does not address a pitch that has bounced where the batter swings and makes contact - because if the batter makes contact then it can't be an u3k.  Otherwise, you would have to declare a pitch that bounces, and is hit by the batter into the air can't be caught.

[Senor Azul]

From the Definitions of Terms in the OBR:

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand.

And here is what the Wendelstedt Rules and Interpretations Manual adds to its definition of the term foul tip:  If a pitched ball bounces in the dirt and then is hit sharp and direct to the catcher’s glove or hand, and then is caught, that shall be a foul tip.

[Richvee]

Thanks. I see what I'm missing. I think I would have called this wrong had I ever seen it.