Pitch Counts

[dumbdumb]

On 12/29/2016 at 8:11 PM, Stk004 said:

Still more work than 3rd base. 

Yes, but since that good ole TV camera catches you in the picture, probably more than any other base position, those who think you get to apply for the one position you want to work, they want to puff out their chests and tell all their friends who will see them on TV they are a professional 2nd base umpire that you can see at 2nd base right in the middle of the screen all the time.

[Rich Ives]

On 12/29/2016 at 5:27 PM, VolUmp said:

I don't do Little League, but how are intentional walks handled?  By Announcement?

I would assume in FED that you don't ding F1 for four pitches if he intentionally walks a batter.

Up to this year LL required throwing the pitches.

Now it can be announced before any pitches are thrown to the batter and 4 pitches are added to the count.  If you decide mid-AB you have to throw the pitches.

[kylehutson]

2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Now it can be announced before any pitches are thrown to the batter and 4 pitches are added to the count.

Just my personal opinion, but this sounds goofy to me. If the goal of pitch count rules is to save the kids' arms, what difference does it make if he doesn't throw pitches?

[BT_Blue]

12 hours ago, kylehutson said:

Just my personal opinion, but this sounds goofy to me. If the goal of pitch count rules is to save the kids' arms, what difference does it make if he doesn't throw pitches?

Probably the fact that F1 can't throw the ball to the backstop and give R2 third, or worse R3 home, if he doesn't throw the pitches.

[BT_Blue]

I imagine we will see the addition of a rule in FED like we have in LL regarding the IBB  and pitch count now that we have them in FED.

[Richvee]

There are 2 questions I have as far as FED pitch counts.

1. will the "announced" IBB count as 4 pitches?(seems rather silly that it would)

2. Will a "pitch" thrown when a balk is called add a pitch to F1's count? (officially no pitch to the batter due to the FED dead ball balk rule)

[ALStripes17]

There are 2 questions I have as far as FED pitch counts.

1. will the "announced" IBB count as 4 pitches?(seems rather silly that it would)

2. Will a "pitch" thrown when a balk is called add a pitch to F1's count? (officially no pitch to the batter due to the FED dead ball balk rule)

With illegal pitches counting as pitches on pitch count... Hopefully common sense prevails.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Mister B]

On 12/31/2016 at 11:09 PM, BT_Blue said:

Probably the fact that F1 can't throw the ball to the backstop and give R2 third, or worse R3 home, if he doesn't throw the pitches.

That is part of the development process. If you want to clean up the IBB process and still develop pitchers, Manager requests an IBB, catcher lines up about 2 feet past the back of the opposite batter's box (He doesn't need to step out), pitcher and catcher proceed to play catch for 4 pitches, BR advances to 1B. If there is a passed ball, other team can steal. If the batter attempts to swing on an IBB, O team is warned for unsportsmanlike, and ball is called. 

Making these kids play catch under pressure is going to do more for development than counting 4 pitches that they never made. 

[BT_Blue]

Thing is, in HS ball, they still have to remain behind the plate until the pitch is thrown. Much the same way you see in MLB. In LL they have that extra large catcher's box (aka triangle) which allows for the catcher to stand behind the opposite batter's box.

[noumpere]

13 hours ago, Richvee said:

There are 2 questions I have as far as FED pitch counts.

1. will the "announced" IBB count as 4 pitches?(seems rather silly that it would)

2. Will a "pitch" thrown when a balk is called add a pitch to F1's count? (officially no pitch to the batter due to the FED dead ball balk rule)

You need to ask your state -- each state (and not FED) is required to develop its own procedure.

[Richvee]

18 minutes ago, noumpere said:

You need to ask your state -- each state (and not FED) is required to develop its own procedure.

Exactly what I was wondering..Are the States just setting the pitch  numbers and days rest, or are they also responsible for the rules of what constitutes a pitch?  

[noumpere]

13 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Exactly what I was wondering..Are the States just setting the pitch  numbers and days rest, or are they also responsible for the rules of what constitutes a pitch?  

Everything.

[maven]

Here's Ohio's implementation: 10 innings (or any part thereof) in three days.

The baseball manual is available here. It's 43 pages long; the pitching rule is on the 21st page (numbered page 20 at bottom).

[scrounge]

1 hour ago, maven said:

Here's Ohio's implementation: 10 innings (or any part thereof) in three days.

The baseball manual is available here. It's 43 pages long; the pitching rule is on the 21st page (numbered page 20 at bottom).

That's last year's manual, correct? I assume this innings-based rule will be replaced this year with a pitch count-based rule. The link to the 2017 manual on ohsaa.org isn't active yet.

[Rich Ives]

7 hours ago, Mister B said:

That is part of the development process. If you want to clean up the IBB process and still develop pitchers, Manager requests an IBB, catcher lines up about 2 feet past the back of the opposite batter's box (He doesn't need to step out), pitcher and catcher proceed to play catch for 4 pitches, BR advances to 1B. If there is a passed ball, other team can steal. If the batter attempts to swing on an IBB, O team is warned for unsportsmanlike, and ball is called. 

Making these kids play catch under pressure is going to do more for development than counting 4 pitches that they never made. 

Horsefeathers. 

[Jimurray]

8 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

Thing is, in HS ball, they still have to remain behind the plate until the pitch is thrown. Much the same way you see in MLB. In LL they have that extra large catcher's box (aka triangle) which allows for the catcher to stand behind the opposite batter's box.

Not the same as MLB/OBR. FED requires catcher in the box for every TOP. OBR requires catcher in the box at time of release on an IBB only. Most of us don't strictly enforce either rule unless the catcher is trying to gain an advantage on a runner which I've never seen. If you watched this years playoffs/WS you saw that MLB umps don't pay that much attention to where the catchers feet are during an IBB.

[maven]

3 hours ago, scrounge said:

That's last year's manual, correct? I assume this innings-based rule will be replaced this year with a pitch count-based rule. The link to the 2017 manual on ohsaa.org isn't active yet.

Oops. Right you are.

Nothing in the Blue Book nor in the interpreters' pre-season package about pitch counts yet.

The 2017 baseball manual has this: "Due to implementation of the NFHS required 'pitch count,' all pitchers must follow newly adopted pitch/rest requirements to be released and communicated in January 2017."

So: TBA.

[Rich Ives]

On 12/31/2016 at 1:45 PM, kylehutson said:

Just my personal opinion, but this sounds goofy to me. If the goal of pitch count rules is to save the kids' arms, what difference does it make if he doesn't throw pitches?

So you cannot extend the pitcher's time in the game.

[kylehutson]

4 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

So you cannot extend the pitcher's time in the game.

Once again, so what? Did that hurt his arm? Walk 20 of my guys in a row and extend his time even more.

[Rich Ives]

37 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

Once again, so what? Did that hurt his arm? Walk 20 of my guys in a row and extend his time even more.

So the HIS team cannot extend his time in the game. If you're the offense you WANT a lesser pitcher to have to come in.

[Mister B]

16 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Horsefeathers. 

I don't like it either, but I think this rule came about because of batters swinging during an IBB to raise up the pitch count. This would at least get rid of that. I'd prefer that there not be an IBB in LL, there's more than enough unintentional walks, there's no need to add more. Let the kids pitch and let them hit. And if your pitchers are getting clobbered, that should be a clue as to wear you need to devote some time. 

I always tell my son when he's on the mound, just work on putting it where you want it. If he hits it, you got 7 guys standing behind you to make the play. If they blow it, it's their fault, you threw a strike. It kills me to see coaches get upset with their pitcher when he allows a couple hits, but then cheer on the pitcher who just walked in 4 runs. 

[kylehutson]

11 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

So the HIS team cannot extend his time in the game. If you're the offense you WANT a lesser pitcher to have to come in.

No kidding?

Then why not institute a 1 inning per game rule? That will certainly bring up their "lesser pitchers" 

The purpose behind the pitch count rules is not to make sure more pitchers get in the game. The purpose is to reduce repetitive stress injuries. An IBB (without pitches thrown) doesn't contribute to RSI, so they shouldn't count, IMHO.

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, kylehutson said:

No kidding?

Then why not institute a 1 inning per game rule? That will certainly bring up their "lesser pitchers" 

The purpose behind the pitch count rules is not to make sure more pitchers get in the game. The purpose is to reduce repetitive stress injuries. An IBB (without pitches thrown) doesn't contribute to RSI, so they shouldn't count, IMHO.

The purpose of making the pitchers throw the pitches on an IBB (in LL) was to make the pitches get counted. At the 13 and up levels several years ago it started out with a wave them to first rule then reverted to making them throw pitches when the pitch counts were installed for just this reason. You don't have to like it.

[scrounge]

It's nonsensical....if pitch counts are a safety rule, then what safety is endangered by counting imaginary pitches?
 

Now, if it's a game management/fantasy baseball/cutesy gamesmanship/whatever rule, whatever reindeer games and silly little pretend counts LL wants, have at it. I'll never know personally.

[lawump]

Here is my reply to all the posts in this thread dealing with the FED rule (not LL):  what does and does not count as a pitch is to be determined by your state and not by the NFHS.  The NFHS just requires that states have a pitching limit based on pitches thrown (rather than innings pitched) but the NFHS does not set forth what specifics should be included in the rule.  IMO, I don't think you'll ever see the NFHS do anything more than mandate to the states that "you must have a pitching limit rule based on pitches thrown".  They will leave it up to the states to implement the mandate and work out the details.

After listening to the experts, I am of the opinion that what works in Florida, may not work in Maine.  And what Maine does may not work in Texas.  And what Texas does may not work in Oregon.  Etc., etc., etc.  The officials in each state are the experts in determining what rule will work best in their state.