Pitch Counts

[Aging_Arbiter]

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 10:28 AM, Rich Ives said:

Horsefeathers. 

[Mister B]

shouldn't that be a unicorn?

[VolUmp]

1 hour ago, Mister B said:

shouldn't that be a unicorn?

That's Pegasus.  Winged Horse.  No appendage from the forehead.

The Unicorn has no wings or feathers ... it doesn't (didn't) fly ...

[Stk004]

3 hours ago, VolUmp said:

That's Pegasus.  Winged Horse.  No appendage from the forehead.

The Unicorn has no wings or feathers ... it doesn't (didn't) fly ...

January in the umpire community...

[Kevin_K]

WTF? I thought this was a unicorn! Have I been deceived?

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/10025790/v1039622883

 

[maven]

OHSAA Baseball Pitch Count Regulation Approved for 2017 January 19, 2017 News Release – Ohio High School Athletic Association Commissioner Daniel B. Ross, Ph.D. www.OHSAA.org | twitter.com/OHSAASports | facebook.com/OHSAA For Immediate Release – January 19, 2017 Contact – Tim Stried, Director of Communications, tstried@ohsaa.org OHSAA Baseball Pitch Count Regulation Approved for 2017 Mandate from National Federation results in change in OHSAA baseball pitching regulation COLUMBUS, Ohio – Details for a nationally-mandated pitch count restriction in high school baseball were approved Thursday by the Ohio High School Athletic Association Board of Directors at its January meeting.

Last year, the National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) informed all states that they were required to have a pitch count limit instead of a regulation based on innings pitched over a certain number of days. Previously in Ohio high school baseball, a pitcher could pitch up to 10 innings in a three-day span. Each state was tasked with determining its own regulation. The new OHSAA pitch count regulation calls for a maximum of 125 pitches permitted in a day, and contains several other details such as the number of days required between pitching appearances based on the number of pitches thrown. The regulation approved Thursday replaces OHSAA baseball regulation 1.7, which was approved last year and indicated that details for the pitch count regulation would be finalized in January. “Our initial goal was to meet the requirement of the NFHS rule that now requires individual states to create their own pitch count limitations,” said Assistant Commissioner Jerry Snodgrass, who is the baseball administrator for the OHSAA. “After assembling a group representing the necessary stakeholders, including a member of our Sports Medicine Advisory Committee, we have met that goal. We continue to look at further ways in which these limitations will affect teams as well as providing adequate education for our coaches and those in non-school baseball.” 2017 OHSAA Baseball Pitch Count Regulation Daily Pitch Limit: 125 pitches Number of Days Between Pitching Appearances After Pitching: 1-30 Pitches: 0 days 31-50 Pitches: 1 day 51-75 Pitches: 2 days 76 or More Pitches: 3 days Doubleheader Note: If a pitcher throws at least 31 pitches in a game, he may not pitch in another game that day (or the next day, per the chart above).

At Bat Completion: If the daily pitch count is reached during an at bat, a pitcher may exceed the pitch count only to finish pitching to the current batter. Data Collection System: At the end of each contest, coaches must submit pitcher data to a designated data collection system. Schools are required to keep pitch count data on all pitchers and make the data available to the OHSAA upon request. Regulation Violation: A team shall forfeit any victorious contest in which a player violates the pitch count regulation. Suspended/Interrupted Games: All pitches thrown during a game that becomes suspended or interrupted (due to weather or darkness, for example) shall count toward the pitch count regulation. Scrimmages and Previews: All pitches thrown in a scrimmage or preview shall count toward the pitch count regulation.

[VolUmp]

1 hour ago, maven said:

OHSAA Baseball Pitch Count Regulation Approved for 2017

I've yet to see a State Press Release that includes answers to three questions:

1) Do we count an illegal pitch?

2) Do we count pitches not actually thrown as a result of an IBB?

3) Do we count a pitch later determined a "no pitch" because of an enforced balk or a time out having been called first?

Our State Director told us (officials) in our State Meeting to answer, "I dunno" to ANY question directed to us regarding pitch counts. Coaches sit through the very same meeting. We officials were then dismissed.

I don't think it would be foolish or presumptuous of a scorekeeper to assume we knew the answer to the above three questions I posed.

Maven, do you know those answers for Ohio?

[maven]

1 hour ago, VolUmp said:

Maven, do you know those answers for Ohio?

If F1 throws the ball at home plate with a batter prepared to hit it, then it counts toward the pitch limit.

Of course, that's just my view. Frankly, the number of "pitches" you're talking about is not statistically significant, so it doesn't really matter either way.

Our state interpreters meeting is Thursday morning this week. If it comes up, I'll post something (maybe live, if I'm bored there).

[VolUmp]

5 hours ago, maven said:

Of course, that's just my view. Frankly, the number of "pitches" you're talking about is not statistically significant, so it doesn't really matter either way.

Well, counting pitches not actually thrown during 3 IBB's (not uncommon in a 7-inning game) would be pretty significant, as many as 12, and since there is at least a precedent of LL counting those non-thrown pitches, that's one I'd want to know.

I don't care what our State Director told us ... "I dunno" ain't gonna cut it if it delays the game or starts a rhubarb that could be prevented with a quick "YES Ma'am" or NO Ma'am" from me.  I've asked coaches around here what they were told in the meeting that we officials were excused from, and the answer is something along the lines of, "We've got some blanks to fill in ... so everyone will be on the same page well before opening day."

Why is nothing ever easy?  I think it's as simple as FED forgot to give guidelines on these slightly off-the-beaten-path circumstances.

FED could have said,

"States ... come up with your own plans, but any pitch thrown with the batter who's ready to hit it counts. IBB's that happen after the pitcher has thrown one of more pitches, clearly count the thrown pitches only.  Pitches ruled no-pitches due to a balk (dead ball) or a late called time out count.  You States take it from there."

[BT_Blue]

17 hours ago, maven said:

If it comes up, I'll post something (maybe live, if I'm bored there).

So we can expect a response real time? Lol

[beerguy55]

15 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Well, counting pitches not actually thrown during 3 IBB's (not uncommon in a 7-inning game) would be pretty significant, as many as 12, and since there is at least a precedent of LL counting those non-thrown pitches, that's one I'd want to know.

I don't care what our State Director told us ... "I dunno" ain't gonna cut it if it delays the game or starts a rhubarb that could be prevented with a quick "YES Ma'am" or NO Ma'am" from me.  I've asked coaches around here what they were told in the meeting that we officials were excused from, and the answer is something along the lines of, "We've got some blanks to fill in ... so everyone will be on the same page well before opening day."

Why is nothing ever easy?  I think it's as simple as FED forgot to give guidelines on these slightly off-the-beaten-path circumstances.

FED could have said,

"States ... come up with your own plans, but any pitch thrown with the batter who's ready to hit it counts. IBB's that happen after the pitcher has thrown one of more pitches, clearly count the thrown pitches only.  Pitches ruled no-pitches due to a balk (dead ball) or a late called time out count.  You States take it from there."

One of the many reasons I prefer innings to pitches. I know you could have one guy throw a 70 pitch inning, and another guy throw a 50 pitch complete game - but those tend to even out...and if we're going to make rules for the outliers then we're in trouble.

If we're going to count IBB's, why not the warm up pitches between innings?  If we're worried about wear and tear and all...

Pitcher A throws 50 pitches in two innings.  Pitcher B throws 48 pitches in six innings.  But Pitcher B has actually thrown 20 more warm up pitches.  (32 more with OBR).  But who would want to count that?

 

[VolUmp]

And no one has mentioned the kids who pitch twice a week and catch three days a week …

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, VolUmp said:

And no one has mentioned the kids who pitch twice a week and catch three days a week …

Why would they? Catchers don't shouldn't need to throw curve balls and other funky, elbow-and-shoulder-straining garbage. I caught (nearly) every game for my baseball teams between age 8 and 18, and I never experienced baseball-induced arm or shoulder injuries. Football, and later hockey and snowboarding would do that.

If teams and coaches really want to preserve a youth pitcher's arm, they should focus their efforts on teaching kids how to field grounders and catch fly balls. The number of extended at-bats and half-innings, all because kids botch catches and mangle routine grounders is staggering.

[VolUmp]

(Said the frustrated ex-pitcher ...)

[dumbdumb]

Where are all the umpires on these state committees to ask the sort of questions above from the get go.

Problem solved.

It is not a problem of agreeing or not agreeing with the handling of a rule that is made. It is a problem of not making a decision on how one wants a rule handled.

Don't think up rules to be written, without thinking "10" times as much about the case book plays that could possibly occur, so you can have your rule and your case book plays all at one time.

Also be thinking about how the rule can be abused/cheated on/taken advantage of, when thinking up the rule and case plays, to take as much unsportsmanlike manipulation of the rule out of the equation.

What about a pitch thrown (leaves the hand in any way)=== equals a pitch no matter whether it counts as a pitch on the batter or not. And having IBB 'count as pitches' for trying to evade the rule for pitch count purposes, rather than the original intention of just trying to speed up the game. You are now still allowed to use the speedup rule to prevent balks, wild pitches, catcher out of the box, etc etc while you are speeding up the game from the old rule, but you are now on the hook for trying to circumvent the pitch count if you do. Nice little way to 'even up' a rule that was hiding under the guise of speeding up the game (no worry about balking on those pitch outs, or throwing a wild pitch, or pitch a lollypop pitch-out that is accidentally within the batter's reach without the batter stepping totally out of the box or on the plate=poor playing) for the purists of the game. Why let them gain 2 advantages (speed up poor play/not count the pitches with a rule that is on the books.

or go ahead and let them get 2 advantages.

Just make a dog gone ruling.

[VolUmp]

25 minutes ago, dumbdumb said:

Just make a dog gone ruling.

Thou preachest to the choir …

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, MadMax said:

Why would they? Catchers don't shouldn't need to throw curve balls and other funky, elbow-and-shoulder-straining garbage. I caught (nearly) every game for my baseball teams between age 8 and 18, and I never experienced baseball-induced arm or shoulder injuries. Football, and later hockey and snowboarding would do that.

If teams and coaches really want to preserve a youth pitcher's arm, they should focus their efforts on teaching kids how to field grounders and catch fly balls. The number of extended at-bats and half-innings, all because kids botch catches and mangle routine grounders is staggering.

Yup - nothing drives up pitch count more than a fourth or fifth out.

Softball rarely has inning/pitch count rules because the chance of injury is far lower (underhand being a natural throwing motion).  However, I've always liked the leagues and tournaments that enforce it simply to ensure that more kids are learning to pitch.

[ALStripes17]

Thou preachest to the choir …

They did make the rule... Just the details are left to the states

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[beerguy55]

17 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

 

Don't think up rules to be written, without thinking "10" times as much about the case book plays that could possibly occur, so you can have your rule and your case book plays all at one time.

Also be thinking about how the rule can be abused/cheated on/taken advantage of, when thinking up the rule and case plays, to take as much unsportsmanlike manipulation of the rule out of the equation.

 

You would think 150 years of baseball players and coaches finding every loophole imaginable (and some not imaginable) would get this ingrained into anyone who proposes a rule change.

 

[kylehutson]

Reopening this old thread to mention that I got some answers this week.

In Kansas, the pitch is only counted if it's a legally pitched ball. Balks don't count, intentional walks don't count. Our state administrator even said it's quite possible we might see more intentional walks because they aren't being counted.

[Justin]

Haven't seen New York's rule posted here yet, so here you go: 

http://www.nysphsaa.org/Portals/0/PDF/Sports/Baseball/2017/2017 Pitch Count Rules.pdf

The big things I notice:

- NYS is going with nights of rest rather than days of rest, which is why 1-30 pitches requires one night of rest (eligible next day).

- Pitchers may finish the batter if they meet the pitch limit mid-batter.

- Balk/illegal pitch does not count as a pitch.

- No word on IBB.

[kylehutson]

We have "days", but 0-30 is "0 days rest", so they could pitch the next night, same as NY.

 

[beerguy55]

20 hours ago, kylehutson said:

Reopening this old thread to mention that I got some answers this week.

In Kansas, the pitch is only counted if it's a legally pitched ball. Balks don't count, intentional walks don't count. Our state administrator even said it's quite possible we might see more intentional walks because they aren't being counted.

If you start counting IBB's then you'll have coaches swapping F1 and F6 for IBB's - at least, that's what I would do.

[Aging_Arbiter]

We must have more pitchers here in PA.  We have 25 pitch increments.......0-25 = 0 days

[beerguy55]

3 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

We must have more pitchers here in PA.  We have 25 pitch increments.......0-25 = 0 days

Or, they're trying to get more kids pitching.  Lowering any pitching limits, whether by inning or pitch, forces more pitchers into the mix.  Now to find the balance - having more pitchers helps everybody...more kids pitching at the younger ages gives you more pitchers at the older years.  But, pitchers need reps to improve.  More pitchers on a team reduces real-game reps for each pitcher.