walk

[Guest Kenneth]

If you walk on four ball when you get to first you touch first and go pass it and turn back around in the foul area and go back to first base but they throw the ball to the first baseman

and get tagged before you retouch first are you out or safe.

[JonnyCat]

In OBR (Official Baseball Rules), you are allowed to overrun 1B on a base on balls and not be in jeopardy of being put out provided runner returns immediately to 1B. See page 65 of PBUC Umpire manual.

In FED, runner cannot overrun 1B. Does not have the same right as above. See 8-2-7 in HS rule book.

I'm not sure in NCAA. Someone else can answer that rule set.

[noumpere]

6 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

In OBR (Official Baseball Rules), you are allowed to overrun 1B on a base on balls and not be in jeopardy of being put out provided runner returns immediately to 1B. See page 65 of PBUC Umpire manual.

In FED, runner cannot overrun 1B. Does not have the same right as above. See 8-2-7 in HS rule book.

I'm not sure in NCAA. Someone else can answer that rule set.

NCAA is same as OBR.

[Aging_Arbiter]

I don't believe that you find in any rule set where it says the runner "must" turn to the right (foul territory) after overrunning 1B.  It just says must immediately return.  However, if in the umpires judgment, any move made in conjunction with the overrun that appears to be the BR attempting to advance to 2B, BR/R1 is now in jeopardy of being put out by a tag.

[noumpere]

I can also think of one example in FED where I would NOT enforce this rule.

[JaxRolo]

31 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I can also think of one example in FED where I would NOT enforce this rule.

When??

 

[noumpere]

13 minutes ago, JaxRolo said:

When??

 

Check-swing / D3k combination.

 

If BR slows down to avoid overrunning first, he's likely to be out if the call is changed to a strike.

 

If he runs through the base, he's likely to be out for overruning.

[BretMan]

15 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Check-swing / D3k combination.

 

If BR slows down to avoid overrunning first, he's likely to be out if the call is changed to a strike.

 

If he runs through the base, he's likely to be out for overruning.

Well, that wouldn't be a WALK then, would it...

...so I hope that you wouldn't enforce it!

[Rich Ives]

WP on ball 4.  Sprint in case there's a chance to go to 2B. 1B Coach says stop - but too late to keep from overrunning. Exposed.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, BretMan said:

Well, that wouldn't be a WALK then, would it...

...so I hope that you wouldn't enforce it!

The pitch was originally ruled ball 4,   But it was a check swing and might be "reversed" to a strike.  If it stays ball four, I'm still not penalizing the BR.

[ElkOil]

9 hours ago, noumpere said:

The pitch was originally ruled ball 4,   But it was a check swing and might be "reversed" to a strike.  If it stays ball four, I'm still not penalizing the BR.

I'm confused. Are you saying that on a check swing ball four, as the batter is making his way to 1B, an appeal is made and a strike is called? If that's the case, the batter isn't a batter-runner and is ineligible for 1B. He can't be tagged out. Or...

Do you mean with a 3-2 count, the batter checks his swing, the pitch gets away, he starts toward 1B, a strike called on appeal and now he's trying for 1B at his own peril?

[ElkOil]

12 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

I don't believe that you find in any rule set where it says the runner "must" turn to the right (foul territory) after overrunning 1B.  It just says must immediately return.  However, if in the umpires judgment, any move made in conjunction with the overrun that appears to be the BR attempting to advance to 2B, BR/R1 is now in jeopardy of being put out by a tag.

I think the question was more about whether or not BR can be put out by overrunning 1B on a walk. In FED he can. If he overruns 1B after a walk, he's in peril.

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, ElkOil said:

I'm confused. Are you saying that on a check swing ball four, as the batter is making his way to 1B, an appeal is made and a strike is called? If that's the case, the batter isn't a batter-runner and is ineligible for 1B. He can't be tagged out. Or...

Do you mean with a 3-2 count, the batter checks his swing, the pitch gets away, he starts toward 1B, a strike called on appeal and now he's trying for 1B at his own peril?

I have a little more time to write today:

 

3-2 count, first base open.  B1 checks his swing on a pitch in the dirt.  The ball gets away from the catcher.  B1 is not sure if the umpire will judge this to be a swing, so he runs toward first.  F2 gets the ball and fires to first.  The ball beats the runner by 1/2 a step.  BR overruns first by 6 steps.  The defense now asks the plate umpire to check with the base umpire on the swing.  The base umpire gives a "no, he didn't" mechanic.  F3 now tags BR and claims that BR overran first on a walk and should be out.

 

No way am I sustaining that out.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

I have a little more time to write today:

 

3-2 count, first base open.  B1 checks his swing on a pitch in the dirt.  The ball gets away from the catcher.  B1 is not sure if the umpire will judge this to be a swing, so he runs toward first.  F2 gets the ball and fires to first.  The ball beats the runner by 1/2 a step.  BR overruns first by 6 steps.  The defense now asks the plate umpire to check with the base umpire on the swing.  The base umpire gives a "no, he didn't" mechanic.  F3 now tags BR and claims that BR overran first on a walk and should be out.

 

No way am I sustaining that out.

That can happen. But if well trained PU should know to go rIght away. And if crew briefs, BU would give a voluntary strike if PU was slow in asking. 

[Rich Ives]

6 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

That can happen. But if well trained PU should know to go rIght away. And if crew briefs, BU would give a voluntary strike if PU was slow in asking. 

It doesn't matter. If it's ball 4 it's still a WP and the runner may think it's wild enough to try for 2B so he continues his sprint.

[noumpere]

13 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

That can happen. But if well trained PU should know to go rIght away. And if crew briefs, BU would give a voluntary strike if PU was slow in asking. 

I agree with what a crew should do.  In all FED games (with a D3K / B4 sit), I'd expect it to happen less than 25% of the time

[Jimurray]

12 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

It doesn't matter. If it's ball 4 it's still a WP and the runner may think it's wild enough to try for 2B so he continues his sprint.

It might matter to @noumpere. I dont know if he would protect the FED runner if the status of the swing was known right away. 

[Jimurray]

15 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I agree with what a crew should do.  In all FED games (with a D3K / B4 sit), I'd expect it to happen less than 25% of the time

And in an even greater percentage I would expect the umpires and participants to not even know that the runner was at risk for overrunning.

[Rich Ives]

4 hours ago, Jimurray said:

It might matter to @noumpere. I dont know if he would protect the FED runner if the status of the swing was known right away. 

If the status is ball 4 it's still a WP and the runner can thus think a try for 2B is an option.

[Mudisfun]

I don't think the runner trying for 2nd is really the issue here.

If I judge ball 4 but there was a chk swing which might appeal to a strike I expect the BR to run since he may be in jeopardy of being thrown out. In that case on an overrun getting an out for overrunning is going to be a tough sell.

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[Rich Ives]

41 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

I don't think the runner trying for 2nd is really the issue here.

If I judge ball 4 but there was a chk swing which might appeal to a strike I expect the BR to run since he may be in jeopardy of being thrown out. In that case on an overrun getting an out for overrunning is going to be a tough sell.

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The overrun IS the issue as a runner sprinting because he might have a chance at 2B may not be able to stop in time if directed to stop at 1B.

[ElkOil]

9 hours ago, noumpere said:

I have a little more time to write today:

 

3-2 count, first base open.  B1 checks his swing on a pitch in the dirt.  The ball gets away from the catcher.  B1 is not sure if the umpire will judge this to be a swing, so he runs toward first.  F2 gets the ball and fires to first.  The ball beats the runner by 1/2 a step.  BR overruns first by 6 steps.  The defense now asks the plate umpire to check with the base umpire on the swing.  The base umpire gives a "no, he didn't" mechanic.  F3 now tags BR and claims that BR overran first on a walk and should be out.

 

No way am I sustaining that out.

The ruling on appeal sustains the original ruling, so I'd have no problem sustaining the out since nothing changed. The runner knew this was ball 4 (or should have known), so shame on him for overrunning 1B.

In addition, if a runner taking 1B on ball 4 overruns and is tagged, he is out by rule. You'd have little ground to stand on by ruling otherwise. What rule would you cite in calling him safe?

[noumpere]

11 hours ago, ElkOil said:

In addition, if a runner taking 1B on ball 4 overruns and is tagged, he is out by rule. You'd have little ground to stand on by ruling otherwise. What rule would you cite in calling him safe?

You are correct that a literal reading of the rule has this as an out.  I'd like to be able to claim that the "spirit and intent" of the rule is not met in this situation, but I'm not sure what the S&I of the rule is in the first place.

 

I still wouldn't call it.

[maven]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

You are correct that a literal reading of the rule has this as an out.  I'd like to be able to claim that the "spirit and intent" of the rule is not met in this situation, but I'm not sure what the S&I of the rule is in the first place.

 

I still wouldn't call it.

I suspect that the spirit and intent of the rule is something like this: runners can in general never overrun bases without liability to be put out, except 1B (on some plays). Why the exception? Because it's difficult to acquire 1B if you have to stop on the base (in some old rule set, runners probably had to stop, and putting them out was too easy, so the rule changed).

FED looked at the exception and limited it: it's fine for batted balls, when the BR is liable to be put out. But on an award (such as BB), by definition he is not liable to be put out. So constrain the exception.

If that's the rationale, then I get it; but I don't think it warrants a rule difference.

[ElkOil]

5 hours ago, noumpere said:

You are correct that a literal reading of the rule has this as an out.  I'd like to be able to claim that the "spirit and intent" of the rule is not met in this situation, but I'm not sure what the S&I of the rule is in the first place.

 

I still wouldn't call it.

I dunno. Seems like you're entering some dicey waters when instead of citing rules you take the nebulous spirit and intent track. There's really nothing to hang your hat on in the latter. If this happened during an emotion-filled game and something important pivoted on it, the troubles that follow will only be compounded. I'd stick with the rule book every time when it's not a judgement call, per se.

[maven]

19 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

I dunno. Seems like you're entering some dicey waters when instead of citing rules you take the nebulous spirit and intent track. There's really nothing to hang your hat on in the latter. If this happened during an emotion-filled game and something important pivoted on it, the troubles that follow will only be compounded. I'd stick with the rule book every time when it's not a judgement call, per se.

He can invoke 10-2-3l (that's a lowercase L). The UIC's duties include the duty to "Rectify any situation in which an umpire's decision that was reversed has placed either team at a disadvantage."