Coach Needs To Go But Partner Doesn't Eject

[tankmjg24]

So I made a poll for this as I believe it will generate answers easier.  This did not happen to me, but to a friend of mine who called asking for advice.  Game is 12U travel ball tournament that was not covered by any major national group (USSSA, Nations, etc), but a local group that has a nice complex and hosts tournaments.  The umpires are not the worst, but not the greatest, and a good majority have just a few years experience.  My friend was on the bases, and an umpire he had just met that weekend was on the plate.  During this game, the coach continues to argue balls and strikes.  From what was told to me his pitcher was throwing a big loopy curve ball that kept missing high and the coach did not like when it was called a ball.  In the bottom of the 4th inning, after the pitcher walked the batter after missing with the curve, the coach calls time and approaches the home plate umpire.  He does not do it aggressively, and begins to have a conversation with PU.  Halfway through the conversation the coach blows up and yells about every obscenity known to man and tells the umpire that he is everything but cute.  He then goes behind home plate and crouches down and pretends to catch a few pitches right down the middle as he yells ball.  He then walks back to the dugout as he is yelling to the plate umpire that he needs to learn what a curve ball is.  So from all of this, it is pretty obvious that the coach needs to be ejected, but for some reason the plate umpire just sat there and watched the entire episode.  The coach went back to the dugout and the game ended later that half inning due to the mercy rule so there was not much else said by him.  After the game my partner asked the plate guy why in the world he did not eject the coach, and the plate umpires response was that he froze as he has never had an ejection before.  So the question is, when your partner has a moment and does not eject a coach who entirely needs to go, do you intervene and do it for him or just sit back and watch?  Thanks

[ricka56]

I voted not to EJ, but that would depends on my partner. If I have a teenage partner, I would get that nipped in the bud hopefully  before an EJ was needed.

If it is an umpire that should know better then I am staying out of it...even if he starts using profanity (but if he directs his displeasure my way, I'll be on him like stink on $#!+). That umpire needs to find the guts to EJ (the first one is the hardest). Unfortunately for this guy he let an easy first EJ get away from him.

If I was working with him, noticed him taking a B/S beating and knew he was reluctant to EJ (frozen), I would go to him in between innings and help him plan his EJ. I-A-W-E.  He's already got the ignore part down. He needs to implement the A-W-E part. You could give him the words to use. "If you continue to argue B/S, you will be ejected". Get him to repeat those words while we two are alone (practice). If he gets the courage to issue that emphatic warning, maybe he'll get the courage to follow through. He might just need help coming up with the proper words to use.

[Tksjewelry]

I had a coach curse at me when I was PU a month or so ago, only I didn't hear him as I had my HSM on but my partner ran him in the blink of an eye. I only found out what happened after the inning was finished. 

The other day, I had a coach fly aggressively of a bucket cursing the whole way at my partner (BU), I ran him immediately. I didn't even wait for him to find is his curse filled sentence. In this situation, there was a history with this coach of getting into altercations so I was in front of him fast to end any advancement which could have ended badly. 

​I think for every situation it depends on the partner. There are some I would intervene for and some I know not too. I've worked with some rookies and I'd definitely run them if my partner froze as others did for me when I was the rookie. Maybe this is something that the guy who froze should work into his pregame with future partners and practice on his own. 

[gnhbua93]

In my opinion, no early exit.  If I'm going to suffer, umpiring a bad baseball game, with a whiner coach who knows that his team is bad but trying to turn the tide on me or my partner, due to his team inefficiency or his coaching ineptitude. He is staying with me for the duration of the game, unless is really something major. I'm making sure he knows that he is staying suffering with me.

 

[eagle_12]

Thoughts on walking in to play rodeo even though he has not been ejected? From an umpire's perspective it may seem like your overstepping your boundaries

Now I know that the BU isn't sure why the PU wasn't pulling the trigger. I get it, he froze, but BU doesn't know that until afterwards. Not sure how long this arguement took, but is there a chance as the BU to stroll in closer, I'm not saying standing side by side, but within 20-30 feet as the argument extends. Maybe from a closer vantage point, the BU can see the PU's reactions. Is he just annoyed by the coach, is he actually "frozen" to where he does need saved and doesn't know how to react, is he actually permitting this activity or unaffected by it? Maybe the PU body language can give clues and determine intervention 

Maybe when the opening comes to were he assumes the crouch behind the plate, the BU can swoop in, rodeo, let the coach blow a gasket even more and then dump him.

Might look like your PU cant handle business, but you also end up taking care of the problem in the end.

[maven]

So working with a newer umpire is a challenge for veterans: they need to learn how to get their own calls, manage the game (especially as PU), and figure it out. But at the same time, since they're less experienced, they're more likely to run into trouble.

Were I BU and my partner started having a conversation with a coach where the coach appeared to be somewhat "animated," I'd drift that direction in order to be close. At the first sign that the coach was starting to "go off," I'd check my partner: if he appeared to have it under control and was about to address the problem, it's his.

But if he had the "deer in the headlights" look, or otherwise was evidently toast, I'd step in to dial the coach down. If he kept going off to me, now I could address it without stepping on my partner.

VERY fine line here: being supportive without "big-timing" or stealing a learning experience from a newer partner is a significant challenge.

 

[renegadewolf]

I'm more or less in line with maven here but to me once the coaches goes demonstrative, if my partner doesn't do anything I'm taking that step.  My partner might not like it, the teams might think i am being a red ass but the fact of the matter is I do have the authority to do so (8.01d) and when a coach decides it is ok to try and get away with that crap and is allowed to, it just becomes another umpires problem in the future.

 

265

[Stan W.]

When working with new or younger umpires, I have stepped in........where was the partner during this this tirade?.....the need for a some of rodeo clowning was evident.... ....I expect my veteran partners to handle their own business, but if  I have a newbie out there, I have and will handle the business needed at the time....in this case, Id eject that jackwagon......

[Replacematt]

This advice is for this situation (or others like it) only.

Given that this coach was so demonstrable and that I have an inexperienced partner, I would have gone to my partner while the show was going on and asked him, "What are you going to do about this?" At that point, he's either got a reason he's not ejecting, or he's unsure as to what to do. I can help with the second answer, and the first is his prerogative.

This wouldn't work for situations that are more quick to end.

[catsbackr]

Given the details in the OP, I would find a way to insert myself into the coach's tirade and eject him myself.

[lawump]

If I am the crew chief, I am ejecting.  If the other umpire is the crew chief, I'm not ejecting.  If neither is the crew chief, it depends on the experience level of the other umpire.

[BillKen]

I'm staying out of it if the HP ump is my equal.  When the game is over, he better have a very solid reason why he didn't dump.  He just made it tough on everyone who follows him with this guy.  OTOH, if he dumps him, the next guy doesn't have any problems.  I hate working with a partner who refuses to TCB.

[HokieUmp]

In my opinion, no early exit.  If I'm going to suffer, umpiring a bad baseball game, with a whiner coach who knows that his team is bad but trying to turn the tide on me or my partner, due to his team inefficiency or his coaching ineptitude. He is staying with me for the duration of the game, unless is really something major. I'm making sure he knows that he is staying suffering with me.

​I'm not trying to pick on you, but I have seen guys post this more than once, and my only response to that is:  why God's name would you DO that???

We talk about taking care of business on the field.  We talk about leaving a mess for other umpires down the track.  If you pull out the "if I'm going to suffer, you're going to suffer" card, you are neither taking care of business NOR looking to swat the misbehaving puppy on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper.  And you're doing a disservice to umpiring.

To the OP:  I'm not sure I would worry too much about the relative status between myself and my partner - when Coach Joe T. Asshat does the crouch-and-call-ball bit, I'm getting him if my partner doesn't.  No way does that guy stay on the same field as me after that.  Even before that, I don't know that it would be beneath me to get into his line of sight, and just hope to get him to direct something at me, and get him then.

[clasonater]

In my opinion, no early exit.  If I'm going to suffer, umpiring a bad baseball game, with a whiner coach who knows that his team is bad but trying to turn the tide on me or my partner, due to his team inefficiency or his coaching ineptitude. He is staying with me for the duration of the game, unless is really something major. I'm making sure he knows that he is staying suffering with me.

 

​I had this tonight in a C game.  The more mad they get the more entertaining it gets.  Borderline balks become much more apparent to me as well (for both teams of course)

[webspinnre]

Cursing at an umpire is one of those for me that is an absolute and automatic EJ. The only way I'm not immediately ejecting is if the other umpire clearly "outranks" me (ie he's crewchief, I'm not, or he's a 20 year veteran and I'm not). Otherwise, I'm starting to drift as soon as it looks like there might be an issue, and once the curse words come out, he's gone and that's that. Coaches do not get to curse at umpires in youth baseball.

[Mudisfun]

In a 12U game I don't care if it is between innings and I am checking the gate in center field If I hear a coach dropping bombs he is getting an EJ especially in the manner of the OP. If my partner is not willing to then I will own it and make that determination and handle my business; he and I can discuss his issues with my decision in the lot after the game.

Older players/shaving age then just dropping a bomb is not quite so automatic but there is no reason to allow a coach to behave as in the OP. Allowing that and not addressing it regardless of where you are on the field just makes you and your partner(s) look like you have zero control over the game. Make the EJ and now if the coach continues he looks like a bigger fool than he already is.

My $.02

 

[Thawk]

I don't care if he's the PU, and I'm the BU, I'm getting down there as fast as I can.  Might be a cheap thing to do, but basically I want to bait him into saying something to me so I can toss him.  If my partner has a problem with that, he can talk to me later.  But I am NOT letting this coach act like that in front of the players and get away with it.

[jpperez14]

With a young guy, I completely understand walking down and listening to the conversation then pick it up myself (if needed), such as okay coach you had your say, enough and direct him to the dugout. After the game or in between innings speak with him and ask what happened etc.

With an older guy, I may walk down and stop at a distance and just wonder what the heck is going on. Hopefully he knows enough to just do what is necessary.

[jkumpire]

Cursing at an umpire is one of those for me that is an absolute and automatic EJ. The only way I'm not immediately ejecting is if the other umpire clearly "outranks" me (ie he's crewchief, I'm not, or he's a 20 year veteran and I'm not). Otherwise, I'm starting to drift as soon as it looks like there might be an issue, and once the curse words come out, he's gone and that's that. Coaches do not get to curse at umpires in youth baseball.

​

In a 12U game I don't care if it is between innings and I am checking the gate in center field If I hear a coach dropping bombs he is getting an EJ especially in the manner of the OP. If my partner is not willing to then I will own it and make that determination and handle my business; he and I can discuss his issues with my decision in the lot after the game.

Older players/shaving age then just dropping a bomb is not quite so automatic but there is no reason to allow a coach to behave as in the OP. Allowing that and not addressing it regardless of where you are on the field just makes you and your partner(s) look like you have zero control over the game. Make the EJ and now if the coach continues he looks like a bigger fool than he already is.

My $.02

 

Thank you very much men! In spite of how disgusting much of our culture is these days, where cuss words that even fifteen or twenty years ago would mean a fight are so common they have no meaning, too much is let go. These are children we are talking about in this situation and if the coach is so immature and out of control he can't get his head out of the gutter then he needs to go, and any other parent who uses that language has to go too. 

<rant> The other day I made the 'mistake' of working game with a team who is having a very poor season in a 15 to 18 yr. old league where they are totally uncompetitive. My young partner missed a pick on a hero slide by R1 (dove short took arm away from lazy F3 and got the other arm before the tag) and someone in the stands went off. After the third curse word with time already out I turned to the stands and told him any more and he's gone. 

He said something about somebody doing their job, and I cut him off and replied "you're an adult. If you can't control yourself you will disappear."  Never heard another word. I hate cussing, and I hate living in so crass a society people think they can just cuss whenever they feel like it for any reason in front of anyone, and I hate having to interrupt a game for young men to teach some adult basic manners. </rant>

In this situation the coach ejected himself,  and someone ought to do a favor for his team and acknowledge his request.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2015 by jkumpire
To define the situation appropiately discussed in the rant section

[lawump]

​

<rant> The other day I made the mistake or working a team in a 15 to 18 yr. old league where my young partner missed a pick on a hero slide by R1 (dove short took arm away from lazy F3 and got the other arm before the tag) and someone in the stands went off. After the third curse word with time already out I turned to the stands and told him any more and he's gone. 

He said something about somebody doing their job, and I cut him off and replied "you're an adult. If you can't control yourself you will disappear."  Never heard another word. I hate cussing, and I hate living in so crass a society people think they can just cuss whenever they feel like it for any reason in front of anyone, and I hate having to interrupt a game for young men to teach some adult basic manners. </rant>

In this situation the coach ejected himself,  and someone ought to do a favor for his team and acknowledge his request.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know what "mistake" you refer to in the first line of my quote of you above as that sentence is not clear.  If you are saying that it was a mistake to talk to the fan, then I agree with you.  If you are referring to some other "mistake" (for example, that it was a mistake to umpire a game in this league) then I don't have an opinion.

But as for talking to fans:  ​Just no.  It worked for you this time (you got lucky), but communicating with fans will turn ugly on you fast if you make this a habit.  Get the site administrator or the head coach of the team the fan is rooting for and tell them that you are not re-starting the game until the fan is dealt with (and you can even tell the administrator/coach what you want them to do: to just make the fan stop and warn him OR to eject the fan), but don't talk to the fans.  Just. Don't. Do. It.

[jkumpire]

Lawump,

It was a lousy game, one team was very poor, I should have put the word in quotes, and will edit the post. .

As to your other point I 100 percent disagree. There were maybe 25 people in the stands, and this man was so obnoxious someone had to deal with him immediately.  This is the first time I have done something like this in many years, but the circumstances were such that something had to be said. If it was a FED game you find game management and dump him. In a summer game with volunteer coaches, a young partner new to umpiring (2nd year) a tough team to work, it is a different matter.

I am quite comfortable with what I did under the circumstances, even if it is something you should not do as a general rule.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2015 by jkumpire

[Replacematt]

Lawump,

It was a lousy game, one team was very poor, I should have put the word in quotes, and will edit the post. .

As to your other point I 100 percent disagree. There were maybe 25 people in the stands, and this man was so obnoxious someone had to deal with him immediately.  This is the first time I have done something like this in many years, but the circumstances were such that something had to be said. If it was a FED game you find game management and dump him. In a summer game with volunteer coaches, a young partner new to umpiring (2nd year) a tough team to work, it is a different matter.

I am quite comfortable with what I did under the circumstances, even if it is something you should not do as a general rule.

​Someone very well may have had to deal with him...and that someone isn't you.

[Majordave]

Base umpire needs to get closer and listen. When it is apparent that the coach has crossed lines with any of the 3P's and partner hasn't done anything then ejection lever gets pulled and rodeo clown activities begin. (At the very least). Any profanity uttered within earshot of anyone else is automatic ejection. Demonstrating is automatic ejection. 

Since the umpire was new, regardless of age, it warrants senior partner stepping in. If a teenage or early 20's umpire then senior umpire should step in. 

I've  done it twice. Once when my son was umpiring with me and once when one of my son's contemporaries was umpiring with me. I was training them so I knew they didn't know how to handle the situation. The one who wasn't my son was being ripped by a guy who was a Kentucky high school state championship veteran SOFTBALL umpire (wearing the ring the state gives to championship game umpires no less) who was yelling at my 20 year old partner and demonstrating a check swing with a bat. I dumped his ass right then. Post-game I explained the ejection "rules" to my partner. He became a pretty good umpire. Got to see him and my son, different games, get each of their own first ejections. 

As for JKUmpire's situation. I am gonna say youvhad to be there. I once had two mothers calling each other the "B" word and the "C" word (yes, THAT four letter nastiest of the nasty words) during a game behind home plate. I stopped the game said "Ladies please!" Then sent the teams to their dugouts, got host team HC to get his tourney manager team to completely clear out the area behind home plate and separate the "ladies". Crazy people. 

Sometimes we just have to umpire, eh?

[lawump]

As for JKUmpire's situation. I am gonna say youvhad to be there. I once had two mothers calling each other the "B" word and the "C" word (yes, THAT four letter nastiest of the nasty words) during a game behind home plate. I stopped the game said "Ladies please!" Then sent the teams to their dugouts, got host team HC to get his tourney manager team to completely clear out the area behind home plate and separate the "ladies". Crazy people. 

Sometimes we just have to umpire, eh?

​First, all you did was say "Ladies please."  (Which you still shouldn't do, IMHO). But, you did not issue a command, a warning, a threat or engage in any type of conversation.  You did what you should do:  you got administration to handle them.

Would the outcome have been any different if you had skipped step one ("Ladies please!") and gone straight to step two ("Coach, get me the tourney manager!")?  The answer is no...so why even do step 1?  Nothing good can come of it.  (Admittedly, nothing bad came of it in your situation...but why even risk it?)  Just go to step 2.

Again, nothing good can come of you interacting with fans with one exception: this past weekend between games of a Legion doubleheader a player's mom walked by herself a long distance from the stands to where we were located (at our locker room...I mean car) and offered us fresh watermelon and other fruits.  It was 101-degrees with a 107-heat index.  I wasn't passing it up...even if I shouldn't talk to fans!!!

Edited June 25, 2015 by lawump
fixed typos

[Majordave]

I was an exclamation. I was shocked. The batter looked back. The catcher even looked around. We were all just dumbfounded and shocked that two mothers would "go there" in public. Aloud. Not my usual method. Absolutely couldn't help it. Purely a knee jerk type reaction.