Two Quick Umpiring Coverage Questions

[aiber]

1). I am on the bases. HIGH SCHOOL. I have never worked with my partner. Two outs. Bases empty and the batter hits the ball into the right field gap. He rounds third and heads home. The throw comes to the catcher and the runner stops to return to third. The catcher throws to third and the 3B swipes and misses the tag. I call safe and the home plate umpire calls out. I turn around a go to my usual spot after an inning in shallow right field. The 3B coach goes ballistic and my partner stands his ground and calls him out. I felt embarrassed that we both made the call. A couple of innings go by and I approach him in between innings. I was going to tell him not to worry and we'll talk later. He has the audacity to say it was his call because it was the first throw???. WHAT????...there's no way he's correct right?

2). Different game, I am on the bases in a high school game. I have never worked with my partner. No outs and runner on second. Dropped third strike and I am in "c" position. The batter runner runs to first and I go towards first base and in for a better angle. Bang-Bang out call. The runner runs to third on the throw. Who's call is that? I think the plate umpire should've hustled to third and it is his call.

Thank you for your input.

[Old Skool]

Your call as BU on both situations assuming you didn't go out on situation 1 anticipating a trouble ball but you said right center gap so assuming you read extra bases hit off the bat.

[johnnyg08]

On the first one, did you go out on the gapper?  It sounds like you didn't...which is fine, but then that call is yours.  Were you so far out of position that he felt compelled to make the call? 

 

What did you pregame?  

 

 

The second one has a couple schools of thoughts and it again comes down to your pregame meeting...this particular play is something that we ALWAYS cover...especially when I'm working w/ somebody who I don't normally work with.

 

If we were working together the base umpire will take both ends of this play.  Meaning you shouldn't get too close to 1B because you might have another call back at third.

 

I like my PU up the first base line because IF I need help, I'd like him there, as opposed to standing up at third base potentially waiting for nothing.  

 

In fact, Evans allows both rotations depending upon where the ball is hit.  

[johnnyg08]

With R2

 

 

[wingman3110]

1) Depends on if you went out for "trouble ball" - otherwise your call as BU

 

2) BU call still

[Majordave]

That is great stuff @johnnyg08. Thanks for posting.

[johnnyg08]

Another piece of info.  Clips courtesy of Jim Evans Maximizing.

R1

[Cav]

1). I am on the bases...

2). Different game, I am on the bases...

 

What was the coverage in your pre-game with your partner for these situations?  

 

In 1.) above, once the BR commits to 3B, NFHS has U2 handing him off to U1, but CCA has U2 taking the BR to 3B.

In 2.) above, U2 has the play on R2 at 3B either before or after a play on the BR at 1B in both NFHS and CCA manuals.

[aiber]

Thanks for all of the info. Very helpful...we did not talk about it before the game. Also, I did not go out for the "trouble ball".

[TheRockawayKid]

Thanks for all of the info. Very helpful...we did not talk about it before the game. Also, I did not go out for the "trouble ball".

Pregame. Always pregame.

[aiber]

Thanks for all of the info. Very helpful...we did not talk about it before the game. Also, I did not go out for the "trouble ball".

Pregame. Always pregame.

We "pre-gamed" but not about that particular situation.

[noumpere]

Thanks for all of the info. Very helpful...we did not talk about it before the game. Also, I did not go out for the "trouble ball".

Well, there's the lesson.

 

Especially on these situations in which different mechanics have it covered differently.

[johnnyg08]

 

 

Thanks for all of the info. Very helpful...we did not talk about it before the game. Also, I did not go out for the "trouble ball".

Pregame. Always pregame.

We "pre-gamed" but not about that particular situation.

 

 

Like all of us on here, we've made a mistake that we don't make again.  Learn from it, don't let it happened again and move on.  Especially with guys you've never worked with before...this rotation MUST be covered in your pregame.  If you forget to cover it in your pregame...call your partner in or come in to meet as soon as you remember to cover it.  

[law_reb]

I agree that a good pregame talk with your partner is important, especially if you haven't worked much with a particular partner.  With that said, it's impossible to cover every possibility in a pregame.  That's why I also believe in-game communication with your partner is so important.  Both pre-pitch and during play, verbal and non-verbal.   

 

An example from a recent game for me.  My partner and I are working for the first time together.  I'm calling my first college game and he is a 20 year college veteran.  We had a pregame, and covered all the basic situations.  One thing we pregamed was that I, as PU, would have the play into 3rd base on a fly ball out tag up with runners on 1st and 2nd.  During the game we have runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs.  I signal that I have the tag to 3rd and my partner returns the signal.  Fly ball to left-center field, runner at 2nd is tagging and runner on 1st is half way.  I start toward third and tell my partner I'm on my way there.  He begins motioning with his left hand for me to get back as he is lining up the tag at 2nd and moving slightly toward 3rd base.  I "listen" to his motion and don't go down to third.  I then let him know I was staying at the plate.  Runner does not advance toward 3rd.  I again signal before the next batter(1 out now) I have the play at 3rd on a tag and he returns signal.  At the end of the inning I motioned for him to meet me so I could ask about his motioning me to stay at home.  He indicated that was a common practice with the play in front of him like that for him to take the catch, tag, and the runner to 3rd.  I don't know if that's correct or not, I haven't done any research on it yet.  But, I was not taught that and I've never handled that play that way before.  We didn't have a play at 3rd in that situation.  However, if I had not said anything on my way to 3rd base, if he didn't give me any signal, and the runner had tagged and attempted to reach 3rd, we could have been in trouble with both of us there to make a call.  Not because we didn't pregame, but because we can't pregame every possible play.  We don't always know what our partner knows or doesn't know.  Pregame is important, but you still have to communicate as well.             

[Cav]

Under 2-man, if a coverage mistake is going to be made, it likely will involve coverage of 3B. 

[conbo61]

I took the TASO Pre-game outline for two umpires, tweaked it for local use, printed it on card stock and then had it laminated at Staples.  When I work with a new partner, it is what I use as a review tool.  Helps minimize the "we forgot to discuss that" issues.

 

http://www.southtexasumpire.com/articles/Pre-game%20for%202-umpire%20crew.pdf

[johnnyg08]

I agree that a good pregame talk with your partner is important, especially if you haven't worked much with a particular partner.  With that said, it's impossible to cover every possibility in a pregame.  That's why I also believe in-game communication with your partner is so important.  Both pre-pitch and during play, verbal and non-verbal.   

 

An example from a recent game for me.  My partner and I are working for the first time together.  I'm calling my first college game and he is a 20 year college veteran.  We had a pregame, and covered all the basic situations.  One thing we pregamed was that I, as PU, would have the play into 3rd base on a fly ball out tag up with runners on 1st and 2nd.  During the game we have runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs.  I signal that I have the tag to 3rd and my partner returns the signal.  Fly ball to left-center field, runner at 2nd is tagging and runner on 1st is half way.  I start toward third and tell my partner I'm on my way there.  He begins motioning with his left hand for me to get back as he is lining up the tag at 2nd and moving slightly toward 3rd base.  I "listen" to his motion and don't go down to third.  I then let him know I was staying at the plate.  Runner does not advance toward 3rd.  I again signal before the next batter(1 out now) I have the play at 3rd on a tag and he returns signal.  At the end of the inning I motioned for him to meet me so I could ask about his motioning me to stay at home.  He indicated that was a common practice with the play in front of him like that for him to take the catch, tag, and the runner to 3rd.  I don't know if that's correct or not, I haven't done any research on it yet.  But, I was not taught that and I've never handled that play that way before.  We didn't have a play at 3rd in that situation.  However, if I had not said anything on my way to 3rd base, if he didn't give me any signal, and the runner had tagged and attempted to reach 3rd, we could have been in trouble with both of us there to make a call.  Not because we didn't pregame, but because we can't pregame every possible play.  We don't always know what our partner knows or doesn't know.  Pregame is important, but you still have to communicate as well.             

 

 

Sure, but then who has R1 who also goes back to tag and now there's a play at 2B?  

 

Or if they throw back to 1B when the try to double off R1?  

[ricka56]

law_reb made the point of communicating during the play. When the ball goes to the wall and I'm taking him all the way to 3B, I will check to see what PU is doing, if he looks like he's getting frisky and heading to 3B, I'll let him know that I've got the runner.

 

But this should be pre-gamed. The Texas HS mechanics book still has PU taking this play into 3B. So this is a must pre-game topic.

[johnnyg08]

We also need to consider the mobility of our base umpire.  

 

It's important to be realistic as to whether or not he can actually get credible distance and angle on a triple. 

[maven]

Under 2-man, if a coverage mistake is going to be made, it likely will involve coverage of 3B. 

 

True for safe/out, but not for all coverage mistakes (catch/no catch, touches, fair/foul, tags between HP and 1B, etc. etc.)

[grayhawk]

FWIW, in SoCal, the state instructional chair sent a memo that PU is to take the BR into third on a triple, going against the Fed mechanic. I think it was a good decision.

[noumpere]

FWIW, in SoCal, the state instructional chair sent a memo that PU is to take the BR into third on a triple, going against the Fed mechanic. I think it was a good decision.

maybe I'm wrong (first time this year!) but I think the FED mechanic is to have PU take BR at third on a triple, while CCA and Pro have BU take the BR all the way around.

 

I disagree with having PU do it, but of course, if I'm in an area where that's what my boss wants me to do, I'll do it.

[maven]

 

FWIW, in SoCal, the state instructional chair sent a memo that PU is to take the BR into third on a triple, going against the Fed mechanic. I think it was a good decision.

maybe I'm wrong (first time this year!) but I think the FED mechanic is to have PU take BR at third on a triple, while CCA and Pro have BU take the BR all the way around.

 

I disagree with having PU do it, but of course, if I'm in an area where that's what my boss wants me to do, I'll do it.

 

 

Correct. Sounds as if SoCal is getting on the bus to FED town.

 

We use the FED mechanic, and the way guys b1tch about it, you'd think they're being asked to umpire in their underwear.

[grayhawk]

FWIW, in SoCal, the state instructional chair sent a memo that PU is to take the BR into third on a triple, going against the Fed mechanic. I think it was a good decision.

maybe I'm wrong (first time this year!) but I think the FED mechanic is to have PU take BR at third on a triple, while CCA and Pro have BU take the BR all the way around.

I disagree with having PU do it, but of course, if I'm in an area where that's what my boss wants me to do, I'll do it.

I mistyped. BU takes BR into third on a triple. Last year, we used the published Fed mechanic.

[Magic]

FWIW, in SoCal, the state instructional chair sent a memo that PU is to take the BR into third on a triple, going against the Fed mechanic. I think it was a good decision.

Games worked 10

FWIW, in SoCal, the state instructional chair sent a memo that PU is to take the BR into third on a triple, going against the Fed mechanic. I think it was a good decision.

maybe I'm wrong (first time this year!) but I think the FED mechanic is to have PU take BR at third on a triple, while CCA and Pro have BU take the BR all the way around.

I disagree with having PU do it, but of course, if I'm in an area where that's what my boss wants me to do, I'll do it.

I mistyped. BU takes BR into third on a triple. Last year, we used the published Fed mechanic.

Games worked 10

[kylejt]

Pre-games, clinics, diagrams, etc. are great. But in real life @#$% happens on the field, and we need the ability to adjust on the fly, and cover each other seamlessly. Being able to read what your partner is, or isn't doing, is a real skill, and tough to teach.

 

The worst case, as we all know, is two umpires making different calls on the same play. Nothing worse. Worse than no call at all.

 

"I've got third if he goes" is one of the best shout-outs on the field. The BUs back is to you, but he knows you've got him covered, if it comes to that.