What happens to batter-runner?

[HammerPIAA]

Apologies in advance if this has been covered before..........this just happened in one of our 12U games this past week.  Our league uses NFHS rules.

 

Batter grounds to SS, throw from SS to 1B clearly beats runner but 1B bobbles then drops throw, and then quickly picks up ball after runner has crossed bag.  PU calls runner safe on the bobble/drop.  Runner believes he is out (because ball clearly beat him) but he didnt see the drop and didnt hear the PU call.  1B coach is obviously not paying attention.  Runner turns around from normal overrun of 1B bag and heads to the dugout.  Before he gets to dugout, defensive team realizes what's happening and runs and tags him.  Offensive coach argues that he is safe because he had legally acquired 1B on the safe call.  PU admitted to both coaches that he didnt know what to do, but ultimately made a decision and called the runner out.

 

Whats the correct ruling?  I was not at this game, but I was asked by several parents/coaches because while this was not my game, I do quite a few games in our league and no one (including our UIC) seemed to know the answer.  I told them I wasnt 100% sure but I'm calling the kid out based on 1) being out of the baseline and/or 2) giving himself up (even though he hadn't yet entered the dugout).

[scrounge]

He got it right, because of 2) above. It's not being out of the baseline in what is usually said, the 3 feet rule of avoiding a play. But it's the abandonment. From 8-4-2, runner is out:

 

"

p. after at least touching first base, leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base; or

 

NOTE: Any runner, after reaching first base, who leaves the baseline heading for the dugout or his defensive position believing that there is no further play, shall be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases."

[HammerPIAA]

That's exactly what I was looking for, thanks!

[blue23ll]

I believe the runner was out after being tagged while off base, not for abandonment.

[HammerPIAA]

He touched first on the original play, was called safe, and then thinking he was out, headed for the dugout and was almost there when the defensive team realized what was up and tagged him.  He did not make an attempt to advance, instead turned right and headed for the dugout.  Would love to know what his 1B coach was thinking!

[Thunderheads]

also, ...(I don't have access for a cite) but ....doesn't it say the runner can overrun first as long as he come back to base immediately following? (something like that)

[blue23ll]

He can't be wandering off base, can he and not be liable to be put out?

[maven]

I believe the runner was out after being tagged while off base, not for abandonment.

 

Only if the umpire ruled that he was attempting or feinting an attempt to advance. 8-2-7

 

Otherwise, he's either simply overrunning the base as allowed by rule, or abandoning per the rule already cited. The reason to call it this way is to prevent the circus that arises if the defense has to tag him off the base (especially if there are other runners).

[maven]

also, ...(I don't have access for a cite) but ....doesn't it say the runner can overrun first as long as he come back to base immediately following? (something like that)

 

Yes, that's in 8-4-2-h-1.

[HammerPIAA]

The runner made no attempt to advance.  After being called safe, he simply never returned to retouch 1B because he thought he was out.

[grayhawk]

1. You said PU called him out. Was he working solo?

2. The tag was irrelevant. When the umpire decides the runner has abandoned his effort to run the bases, he should call him out without a tag.

[noumpere]

also, ...(I don't have access for a cite) but ....doesn't it say the runner can overrun first as long as he come back to base immediately following? (something like that)

FED 8-2-7: A BR who reaches first base safely and then overruns or overslides may immediately return without liability of being put out.

 

In the OP, you can get an out either way -- as a practical matter, your not going to call abandonment until the runner is practically in the dugout.

[blue23ll]

Clarify for me please, BR gets a walk, after touching first he stands off the base removing his batting gloves. Is the BR liable to be put out?

[HammerPIAA]

PU was working solo.

 

Unfortunately for him, he didnt immediately return to the base after overrunning it...........he just headed for the dugout right away. 

 

 

From what I gather, I dont believe the PU would have called him out (for abandonment) without the tag because he admitted to both coaches that he wasnt sure what the ruling should be.  I was told that the kid was not in the dugout, but was very close to entering when he was tagged.

[HammerPIAA]

Clarify for me please, BR gets a walk, after touching first he stands off the base removing his batting gloves. Is the BR liable to be put out?

My understanding is that on a walk, since it is a non-dead ball one-base award, that the runner IS liable to be put out if he's off the bag once he touches.

[Chip]

You have to wonder how well the PU sold the call that both the BR and 1B coach missed it. If I'm working a game like that solo and therefore making a non-obvious call while trailing the play, I'm going to be extra loud and forceful in my call -- probably belting out "safe! on the bobble! safe!" or something like that to make sure that everyone knows and understands the call. 

 

I don't want to get an out for abandonment on a play like that, especially at 12U or lower, if I can avoid it. 

[HammerPIAA]

You have to wonder how well the PU sold the call that both the BR and 1B coach missed it. If I'm working a game like that solo and therefore making a non-obvious call while trailing the play, I'm going to be extra loud and forceful in my call -- probably belting out "safe! on the bobble! safe!" or something like that to make sure that everyone knows and understands the call. 

 

I don't want to get an out for abandonment on a play like that, especially at 12U or lower, if I can avoid it. 

I agree 100%........................ and to be honest, when this was originally brought to me, my first response was, "How did both the batter-runner AND the 1B coach not hear the call?  Did he whisper it?"

[noumpere]

Clarify for me please, BR gets a walk, after touching first he stands off the base removing his batting gloves. Is the BR liable to be put out?

Ignoring for the moment the stupid FED rule about "overrunning does not apply on a walk", its going to depend on the umpires interpretation of immediately.  And, to be honest, this umpire's determination of it depends on the runner's actions.

[maven]

Clarify for me please, BR gets a walk, after touching first he stands off the base removing his batting gloves. Is the BR liable to be put out?

 

FED: yes

 

OBR: no

 

He should request time in any case for that activity.

[LRZ]

You have to wonder how well the PU sold the call that both the BR and 1B coach missed it. If I'm working a game like that solo and therefore making a non-obvious call while trailing the play, I'm going to be extra loud and forceful in my call -- probably belting out "safe! on the bobble! safe!" or something like that to make sure that everyone knows and understands the call. 

 

I don't want to get an out for abandonment on a play like that, especially at 12U or lower, if I can avoid it. 

It's tough to sell a call after having "admitted to both coaches that he didn't know what to do."

[Chip]

 

You have to wonder how well the PU sold the call that both the BR and 1B coach missed it. If I'm working a game like that solo and therefore making a non-obvious call while trailing the play, I'm going to be extra loud and forceful in my call -- probably belting out "safe! on the bobble! safe!" or something like that to make sure that everyone knows and understands the call. 

 

I don't want to get an out for abandonment on a play like that, especially at 12U or lower, if I can avoid it. 

It's tough to sell a call after having "admitted to both coaches that he didn't know what to do."

 

 

Agree, but my point was that he should have sold the safe call and then wouldn't have had to try to figure out how to apply the rules after that.

[ALStripes17]

Clarify for me please, BR gets a walk, after touching first he stands off the base removing his batting gloves. Is the BR liable to be put out?

In FED, the BR is not protected through 1B, only to it.

Yes, he's liable to be put out in FED.

OBR and NCAA, if he runs through 1B and just stands there off the base without immediately returning, I have him liable to be put out. Get back to and stay on the freakin base

[Rich Ives]

 

Clarify for me please, BR gets a walk, after touching first he stands off the base removing his batting gloves. Is the BR liable to be put out?

In FED, the BR is not protected through 1B, only to it.

Yes, he's liable to be put out in FED.

OBR and NCAA, if he runs through 1B and just stands there off the base without immediately returning, I have him liable to be put out. Get back to and stay on the freakin base

 

 

So on a walk it's OK to stand around at the plate and take off your armor before you go to 1B but if you go there first it's not OK?

[ALStripes17]

Clarify for me please, BR gets a walk, after touching first he stands off the base removing his batting gloves. Is the BR liable to be put out?

In FED, the BR is not protected through 1B, only to it.

Yes, he's liable to be put out in FED.

OBR and NCAA, if he runs through 1B and just stands there off the base without immediately returning, I have him liable to be put out. Get back to and stay on the freakin base

So on a walk it's OK to stand around at the plate and take off your armor before you go to 1B but if you go there first it's not OK?

Yes. The base on balls award in FED is only TO the base, not through it.

If anyone has CB cite, please help as I do not have my books with me.

[grayhawk]

 

Clarify for me please, BR gets a walk, after touching first he stands off the base removing his batting gloves. Is the BR liable to be put out?

In FED, the BR is not protected through 1B, only to it.

Yes, he's liable to be put out in FED.

OBR and NCAA, if he runs through 1B and just stands there off the base without immediately returning, I have him liable to be put out. Get back to and stay on the freakin base

 

 

[ALStripes17]

Clarify for me please, BR gets a walk, after touching first he stands off the base removing his batting gloves. Is the BR liable to be put out?

In FED, the BR is not protected through 1B, only to it.

Yes, he's liable to be put out in FED.

OBR and NCAA, if he runs through 1B and just stands there off the base without immediately returning, I have him liable to be put out. Get back to and stay on the freakin base

@grayhawk, explain to me why a BR, once acquiring 1B would get off of 1B to take off batting gloves or armor without being granted "Time" first? Why don't they just stand off other bases too while they piddle with equipment?

Bag = safe ... first thing runners are taught