HammerPIAA

​Yup, I found out the hard way. Her initial approach was not confrontational or obnoxious. So, we engaged her. When it became obvious after 2 minutes that was a mistake, we cut bait, politely said good day and walked away. She didnt like that.

​Good advice all around, thanks!

​Dont think that didnt run through my mind.......................would have done the world a favor!

​Great advice! Didnt know if there was precedent to write up a report on a fan when there was no ejection of a coach or player in the game. Wish I had the aforethought to bust out my cell phone video............just was taken aback by the situation................

​Love it. Never occurred to me to threaten to contact the cops (because at that point, there wasnt really anyone else in "authority" around). Again, I've never encountered anyone like this so wasnt sure what recourse I might have.

Guys, wanted your opinion on how you'd handle this.............Pennsylvania Middle School game, FED rules. Well played, tight game, HT ends up winning on a walk off single, 2-1. Im on the plate. Early in the game, my partner (correctly) balks the HT pitcher but the pitch continues and the VT batter hits an inside the park homer. Meanwhile we are both killing the play as is required in FED rules. VT head coach is not happy as it wipes 2 runs off the board but understands that rules is rules. 5th inning HT completes 4-6-3 DP and my partner (IMO correctly) calls the force at 2nd (ball there in plenty of time, typical "neighborhood play" where SS is close enough to the bag where there's no way you're calling the runner safe). Loudmouth mom on the VT side starts bitching about the play to ME and although I ignore her, she continues to chirp for the next 2 innings. Gets very tiresome to listen to, but I let it go because I have to maintain focus on this game, and mainly because it wasn't my call. So, given the 2 plays indicated above earlier there is probably some frustration on the VT side. It should be noted that the VT HC did not complain about the force play or the balk call once the rule was explained to him. Game ends as described above, we shake hands with the coaches, both tell us "good job" and we leave the field together and head back to the parking lot about 100 yards away. I felt we both really DID do a good job. As we are walking there, loudmouth mom approaches us both together and (initially, politely) asks again about the force play I described above. Insists the SS was off the bag and the kid was safe. Now, my personal policy is that often after a game a parent will ask about a rule or specific play after a game, and if it is done politely or non-confrontationally, I generally have no problem giving a brief explanation before I head on my way. 99.5% of the time I get a "thanks for the explanation." So in this particular instance, my partner replies, "ma'am, I had his foot on the bag." She's not buying it - we explain one more time that its a judgement call and that the foot was on the bag. Still no agreement. At that point, its been about 2 minutes and I finally realize that this isnt going anywhere, so I but in and say, "thanks ma'am, but we explained the call twice and there's nothing more to talk about" and we both turn away and leave to go to our cars. At that point she becomes very agitated and starts walking after us calling me "very arrogant" and asking for my name as she intends to "report me to the PIAA" because Im "so arrogant". We very calmly (hard to do at this point) keep walking away but she keeps following with her rant. Im literally at my car taking off my shirt and chest protector and she's still yelling at me. Not threateningly but at this point its more of a somewhat amusing annoyance. Finally to shut her up, I give her my name so hopefully she'll just shut up and leave. She then asks me if I have a business card. Laughingly, I say "no" and she starts on the "arrogant" thing again. Sorry for the long story, but I wanted your all's take on the above and whether I handled it properly. Only time in 3 years of doing MS and HS games that I had a parent act like such a jackass after a game so I dont have a lot of experience in this department.............thanks!

You are correct, I screwed that one up.................the thing was that the leadoff batter hit the first pitch for a single and by the time I had put 2 and 2 together, a pitch had been thrown to the next batter and knowing something was wrong I alerted our coach immediately - didnt have the time to go through the logic as you did above................too much was happening and too quickly....................

It was a local tournament - and the championship game to boot, and while I will acknowledge that in these tournaments, my experience has been that the umpires generally do NOT ask for lineup cards, I agree that for the title game it should have been requested. It was late and it was cold and at times my feeling was that they just wanted to get out of there and get home.........................

@noumpere - I agree with everything you've indicated, unfortunately we were the visiting team (determined by seed) and therefore the home book would "rule". We did not appeal in time to get an out. I just wasnt really happy with the explanation/reasoning the PU gave. @grayhawk - as it relates to the above.........in this particular case the PU did not ask for lineup cards. We exchanged them after ground rules/pre-game conference.

Guys, hoping to get some opinions on how you would handle this one..........OBR rules 14U tournament championship game last night, 3rd inning, tie game. Im keeping score on Gamechanger for my son's team (in this scenario, we are the defensive team). Lead off batter of the inning ("Abel") hits first pitch for a single up the middle. Next hitter ("Baker") takes first pitch for a ball, Abel steals second. I then realize because of uniform numbers something wasnt adding up, its now apparent that the lineup card the other team provided us with before the game had Baker batting before Abel in the lineup. I immediately inform our coach and he requests time to discuss with the PU. (It should be noted that there was no formal exchange of lineup cards by the PU during pre-game conference - only coaches exchanged lineups - PU did not have copies of cards). We compare books and although the other team has the lineup correct (Abel before Baker) in their own book, their lineup card they provided to us for whatever reason is incorrect (Baker before Abel). Umpire said that there was clearly a mistake made by the other team, he let it go because "it was their first time through the lineup so they could just flip the 2 batters the next time through" (I almost went ballistic when I heard this reasoning) First off, my question is two-fold...........did we lose the right to appeal batting out of order because a pitch had been thrown to the next batter? 2nd question depends on the answer to the 1st. If we lose right to appeal then the point is moot..................but lets assume that either under this scenario we did not lose the right to appear or we had noticed prior to the 1st pitch thrown to the next batter and brought this up................did the PU handle the situation correctly? I dont believe he did. And, lastly, under OBR, a successful appeal would have caused the proper batter to be declared out, but since the 2 players flip flopped positions in the order, how would you rule?

I happen to agree that its not a "fake tag". To me, "fake" implies intentional, and this clearly was not. Runner DID alter his path to go around THE "TAG", but not the catcher, because he wasnt blocking the plate. Emphasis in OP was because I wanted to be clear that the local rule was "slide or attempt to avoid contact". It is not a mandatory slide rule. The rule is that you dont have to slide, BUT.......if you DONT slide, you must attempt to avoid contact (umpire's judgment). I dont like a "must slide" rule either. I think the way this league enforces that rule is a good compromise that protects the safety of the players without forcing a kid to slide when its not necessary.

What may not have been clear from my original post is that the catcher was NOT blocking the plate. He stepped 2 or 3 feet in front of the plate to receive the throw, then lunged back to the plate area to make the "tag" when the runner was arriving from third, he just didnt realize the ball was not in his mitt (and neither did the runner). There still was plenty of room to slide. The runner, also being 9YO, simply elected to go around the "tag" rather than slide. I often see kids at this age group not slide simply because for whatever reason, they just don't like sliding. Having seen the play myself, I'd have a very hard time calling OBS here. In my mind the only potential for OBS would have been because the tag was with an unintentionally empty glove. One could argue it was a "fake tag".

Correct on the intent part, but since the kid had the ball when he went to tag the runner and the ball dropped out of the glove how is that obstruction? Unless I read the op wrong. Catcher thought he had secured the ball prior to the tag, but didnt realize the ball wasnt in his mitt - it was on the ground. So he unknowingly applied the tag with an empty mitt. He WAS 9YO, after all!

I would not have OBS on this play. Wouldnt the tag have to be INTENTIONALLY fake for it to be OBS? In this case it was not an attempt to deceive the runner, the 9yo catcher truly thought he still had the ball.

Agreed, I have never seen that call made in MLB. Even if we assume it isnt ignored, I dont personally consider standing in the back corner of the RH batter's box as "out of the baseline"

Good point...................I wasnt looking at it from the OBS angle, however technically you are 100% correct (although in NFHS I dont believe there is a "Type A OBS" per se). If he had made a bigger issue out of it, I could have pulled that one out as well. Either way, the correct result occurred which was my biggest concern. The coach did mildly protest but generally went about it in a gentlemanly manner..........I think he couldnt believe what had happened and was fishing for a different outcome!

Ok, so here's an interesting one that happened to me as PU last Sunday- 9U tournament, NFHS rule set w local rule overrides. Sorry if its long, but need to set it up properly. Very good game back and forth, visiting team scores 5 in 6th to go ahead by 1, in B6 home team gets tying run to 2B with 2 outs. BR hits a liner down the right field line, clearly fair, goes to the corner. Tying run scores, kid is flying around the bases, has at least a stand up 3B. Ball is back to the infield but runner runs right through 3B coach stop sign and heads home. A good throw and he's dead. Throw comes in and its good, C grabs the ball, goes to make the tag. Runner attempts to go around the tag (one of our local rule overrides is "runners must slide OR attempt to avoid contact") and in doing so jumps to the right of the plate, into the far back corner of the right hand batters box. Catcher is able to tag him anyway and runner never touches home plate. All this is great, except there is one problem...........the catcher in his haste to make the tag, dropped the ball in front of the plate before he tug the runner. So, what we have now is a catcher who THOUGHT he had the ball and made a tag, and a runner who THOUGHT he had been tagged out. Catcher is happy, runner is disgusted, takes off his helmet in frustration, but stays generally where he was in the back corner of the box. I call nothing. Everybody is standing around waiting to see what the call is. Finally the OC notices the ball on the ground in front of the plate and screams to his runner to "touch home, touch home". The DC, hearing that also finally notices the ball on the ground and screams for his catcher to pick it up and make the tag. The runner gets to home first, I call "SAFE!" and the game is over. DC is now yelling to me that runner should be out for "going out of the baseline." I tell him that the runner is entitled to his baseline, didn't go out of the baseline to avoid a tag, and was located in the back corner of the batters box which in my judgement when rounding 3B and heading home is close enough to the line he had established to NOT be considered out of the baseline. Hearing that logic, he then complains that the runner had "given himself up" because he took off his helmet when the play wasnt over. I explain that the while the helmet was intentionally removed, it was done by a 9YO player thinking he was out, for which I believe the penalty is a warning to the coach anyway - and the game was over at that point. The runner at no time headed towards or entered his own dugout so it cant be "abandonment". There was a lot going on there.............was my explanation correct?

haha on the SAFE call. I can imagine the logic there confused some people! Maven - looking back on it its definitely a HTBT - quite frankly, it didnt fall 100% into either scenario you describe above, but definitively leans closest to #1. My request and the subsequent showing of the ball was (in my best judgment) during the natural flow of the play, and not after they had both been lying there for 2 or 3 seconds waiting for me to make a call.

All excellent points brought up by everyone. This discussion is EXACTLY why I come here to hear professional advice and perspective from this group! I was also told that the "show me the ball" mechanic was proper. But given some of the feedback today, I can see the advantages and disadvantages - tough call. I'd also be interested in how others weigh in on this. Am I in the minority or majority? In the end, all I want to do is be sure I get it right!

Its impossible for me to tell if that was the case. As soon as he brought his glove up, the ball flew out. He could have been "snowconing it" which is why a simple glove raise make it fly loose. It happened very quickly. But although I was on top of the play, I agree with the other advice I was given that its my job to get in better position to actually see the glove without asking the kid to show me the ball. The only drawback to that is that other plays can be happening at this is going on and if my having to dig through a tangle of arms, legs, a glove and dust to find that ball takes a little time, it could hinder the defense's ability to make a play.

Totally agreed - that was my thought process as well but I did base that largely on the ball flying out. My thought was, if ball flies out when he goes to show me the ball, then he didnt have full control. That being said, I appreciate the advice from both yourself and BRUMP regarding not using the "show me the ball" "mechanic". That greatly diminishes the chance of that happening. Thanks!

Thanks, Grayhawk - excellent advice! So advice aside, from a rules standpoint, since its not the continuing action of the tag............then technically I blew that call is what Im gathering?

very good point.................although these were 12U players - so not sure what you would consider "younger kids"

Im PU......P throws wild pitch and R3 attempts to score from 3B. C retrieves ball, throws quickly to P who is covering HP and applies tag on a bang bang play - tag was applied in time before R3 reached home, but I cant see if pitcher held ball due to dust, close play, etc................so I say "show me the ball"...............P goes to hold up glove to show ball and in process of doing so, ball flies out of glove. Im ready to ring R3 up, but then call safe when I see the ball pop loose. My thought is that he has to have complete control of the ball through the tag, which includes him showing me the ball. If the ball pops out while doing so, then he really didnt have complete control of the ball through the tag. DC objected briefly but then backed off when I explained this reasoning as noted before. Did I make the right call?

afaber13 - thats exactly what he was saying. Because it was clear there was no discrete step off. And my response to him was exactly what you indicate above. Matter of fact, I told him that if that WASNT what he was saying, then his pitcher attempted to make a pitch without being engaged with the pitchers plate which would have been an illegal pitch, and with the runner on base, a balk. Same result either way.