IFF Question on 2013 Study Guide

[grayhawk]

This question is on our association's 2013 NFHS study guide:

 

PLAY: With the bases loaded and one out, the batter squares to bunt. At the last moment, he ducks away from a high fastball. The ball hits his bat and rises several feet in the air toward the pitcher’s mound. The pitcher makes the catch. RULING: This is not an infield fly.

 

True or False?

[semper_fi_72]

This question is on our association's 2013 NFHS study guide:

 

PLAY: With the bases loaded and one out, the batter squares to bunt. At the last moment, he ducks away from a high fastball. The ball hits his bat and rises several feet in the air toward the pitcher’s mound. The pitcher makes the catch. RULING: This is not an infield fly.

 

True or False?

 

True

It is not a infield fly.

To call a infield fly it must be a batted ball, which means the batter must swing and that does not include a bunt, attempted bunt, or a pitch that hits a bat as described.  Batter made no attempt to swing at the pitch therefore you can not have a batted ball.

[gnhbua93]

End of topic.

[SnareDrum]

Great question. To be an IFF, it can't be an attempted bunt or a line drive. A bunt by basic definition is still considered a "batted ball". Beyond "attempted bunt", there's nothing at all in the rule that dictates what kind of swing is required. It has to be batted (hit the bat held by the batter), not a line drive or an attempted bunt, and caught with ordinary effort by an infielder.

 

This is probably a HTBT... was he still attempting the bunt or did he abandon the attempt to bail out? ...but as that question is written, I'm leaning towards false.

 

If I believe that he's no longer attempting to bunt it's an IFF. If I decide he still was, then I just signal the out. (WHAT IF... there's no attempt for the bunt, and the pitch hits the bat without a swing for the popup to the pitcher in the same situation?)

 

I'm going to mull this over a little more. Be back in a bit. No rock throwing please.

 

[JaxRolo]

I will say that it is False.

The ball hit the bat. The ball headed to the pitcher in flight.

Why not?

Unless it was still an attempted bunt. Then no.

But it sounds like he abandoned his attempt at the bunt.

[grayhawk]

This question is on our association's 2013 NFHS study guide:

 

PLAY: With the bases loaded and one out, the batter squares to bunt. At the last moment, he ducks away from a high fastball. The ball hits his bat and rises several feet in the air toward the pitcher’s mound. The pitcher makes the catch. RULING: This is not an infield fly.

 

True or False?

 

True

It is not a infield fly.

To call a infield fly it must be a batted ball, which means the batter must swing and that does not include a bunt, attempted bunt, or a pitch that hits a bat as described.  Batter made no attempt to swing at the pitch therefore you can not have a batted ball.

 

Lou, go back and look at the definition of a batted ball (2-6).  Intent is not there.

 

If a batter squares to bunt, but then ducks away to get out of the way of a pitch up and in and the ball happens to hit the bat, do you consider this to be a bunt or attempted bunt?  Is he "holding the bat in the path of the ball to tap it slowly into the infield"?  If he had two strikes on him at the time, would you call him out if the ball was fouled back?

[semper_fi_72]

 

This question is on our association's 2013 NFHS study guide:

 

PLAY: With the bases loaded and one out, the batter squares to bunt. At the last moment, he ducks away from a high fastball. The ball hits his bat and rises several feet in the air toward the pitcher’s mound. The pitcher makes the catch. RULING: This is not an infield fly.

 

True or False?

 

True

It is not a infield fly.

To call a infield fly it must be a batted ball, which means the batter must swing and that does not include a bunt, attempted bunt, or a pitch that hits a bat as described.  Batter made no attempt to swing at the pitch therefore you can not have a batted ball.

 

Lou, go back and look at the definition of a batted ball (2-6).  Intent is not there.

 

If a batter squares to bunt, but then ducks away to get out of the way of a pitch up and in and the ball happens to hit the bat, do you consider this to be a bunt or attempted bunt?  Is he "holding the bat in the path of the ball to tap it slowly into the infield"?  If he had two strikes on him at the time, would you call him out if the ball was fouled back?

 

That is neither a bunt or attempted bunt.

It is also not a swing that would initiate a batted ball.

If the ball hits that bat and goes foul, it is a foul.

If there are two strikes and the ball hits the bat and is caught directly by F2 it is an out.

 

The OP also says the ball rises several feet.

What is the definition of several feet?

I consider several feet to not be a line drive but also not high enough for it to be considered a fly ball.

In fact 2-6.2 states: "A fly ball is a batted ball that rises an appreciable height above the ground".

Even if you consider this a batted ball, you do not have a Fly Ball as several feet is not an "Appreciable" height.

 

Still true:  You do not have a infield fly rule.

 

Another one of the questions someone makes up which is really a HTBT situation and can go either ways based on what actually happened and not what some is trying to poorly explain in a question.

When they write these questions they need to make sure they use the appropriate terminology from the rules as to leave no doubt what they are asking.

[grayhawk]

 

 

This question is on our association's 2013 NFHS study guide:

 

PLAY: With the bases loaded and one out, the batter squares to bunt. At the last moment, he ducks away from a high fastball. The ball hits his bat and rises several feet in the air toward the pitcher’s mound. The pitcher makes the catch. RULING: This is not an infield fly.

 

True or False?

 

True

It is not a infield fly.

To call a infield fly it must be a batted ball, which means the batter must swing and that does not include a bunt, attempted bunt, or a pitch that hits a bat as described.  Batter made no attempt to swing at the pitch therefore you can not have a batted ball.

 

Lou, go back and look at the definition of a batted ball (2-6).  Intent is not there.

 

If a batter squares to bunt, but then ducks away to get out of the way of a pitch up and in and the ball happens to hit the bat, do you consider this to be a bunt or attempted bunt?  Is he "holding the bat in the path of the ball to tap it slowly into the infield"?  If he had two strikes on him at the time, would you call him out if the ball was fouled back?

 

That is neither a bunt or attempted bunt. AGREED.

It is also not a swing that would initiate a batted ball.  DISAGREE.  It IS, in fact, a batted ball.  What else can it be?

If the ball hits that bat and goes foul, it is a foul. AGREED.

If there are two strikes and the ball hits the bat and is caught directly by F2 it is an out. AGREED.

 

The OP also says the ball rises several feet.

What is the definition of several feet?  No idea.

I consider several feet to not be a line drive but also not high enough for it to be considered a fly ball.  Maybe - it's judgment.

In fact 2-6.2 states: "A fly ball is a batted ball that rises an appreciable height above the ground".

Even if you consider this a batted ball, you do not have a Fly Ball as several feet is not an "Appreciable" height.    Just because he accidentally put the ball into play does not disqualify it from being an IFF.  If the other conditions are met (fly ball that could be caught by an infielder with orinary effort), then IFF is indicated.  Let's say F1 can catch it with ordinary effort, but lets it drop, untouched, to the ground and gets a double play.  Isn't that what the IFF rule is trying to protect the offense from?  I think we can agree that "several feet" and "an appreciable height" are pure judgment, which makes this a HTBT.

 

Still true:  You do not have a infield fly rule.  I'm okay with this if you feel "several feet" isn't a fly ball.  However, the WAY the ball was put into play is not relevant, because if it's not a batted ball, then what is it?

 

Another one of the questions someone makes up which is really a HTBT situation and can go either ways based on what actually happened and not what some is trying to poorly explain in a question. When they write these questions they need to make sure they use the appropriate terminology from the rules as to leave no doubt what they are asking.  AGREED.

[SnareDrum]

A swing doesn't have to initiate a batted ball. Never has. How many times have we all seen a kid duck a a pitch and have it hit his bat above or behind his head? Or the batter leans back on an inside pitch and it ricochets off the knob of the bat? The fair batted ball trickles in front of the plate without a swing, ball's in play, and the fun begins. 

 

Lots of things to look at as this HTBT play develops. Regarding the OP, agreed it could have been a little clearer. Answering "False" would mean that you saw no attempt at a bunt and the ball was batted high enough. "True" would mean that you saw him still attempting to bunt, or judged it a line drive.  As it's written, and due to it's source, I'm still leaning towards false. 

[JaxRolo]

Sometimes in a test you have to pick the most correct answer.

I agree it could be a htbt but the most correct answer is false

[basejester]

This question is on our association's 2013 NFHS study guide:

 

PLAY: With the bases loaded and one out, the batter squares to bunt. At the last moment, he ducks away from a high fastball. The ball hits his bat and rises several feet in the air toward the pitcher’s mound. The pitcher makes the catch. RULING: This is not an infield fly.

 

True or False?

First, I hate the wording of this question, with the extra negative and the fictitious umpire making a ruling.

How about asking, "True of False: This is an infield fly."

Second, why does it matter after the ball was caught? (Not a trick question.)

Third, batted balls have to include bunts. Look at section 2-5. If we say bunts aren't batted balls, then bunts cannot be fair balls. That's crazy, so let's not say that.

Check swings are also batted balls and could be an infield fly, even though, at the moment of contact, the batter had stopped trying to make contact.

Nevertheless, I think this is still part of a bunt attempt and therefore not an IFF.

So, ummm, true. It might help to know what the batter is doing with his hands in the description.

[grayhawk]

basejester, on a two stike count, if a batter squares to bunt and then ducks to get out of the way of a pitch coming at him, will you call him out if the pitch hits his bat and goes foul?

[SnareDrum]

This question is on our association's 2013 NFHS study guide:

 

PLAY: With the bases loaded and one out, the batter squares to bunt. At the last moment, he ducks away from a high fastball. The ball hits his bat and rises several feet in the air toward the pitcher’s mound. The pitcher makes the catch. RULING: This is not an infield fly.

 

True or False?

First, I hate the wording of this question, with the extra negative and the fictitious umpire making a ruling.

How about asking, "True of False: This is an infield fly."

Second, why does it matter after the ball was caught? (Not a trick question.)

Third, batted balls have to include bunts. Look at section 2-5. If we say bunts aren't batted balls, then bunts cannot be fair balls. That's crazy, so let's not say that.

Check swings are also batted balls and could be an infield fly, even though, at the moment of contact, the batter had stopped trying to make contact.

Nevertheless, I think this is still part of a bunt attempt and therefore not an IFF.

So, ummm, true. It might help to know what the batter is doing with his hands in the description.

-------------------------------------------------

Now that's why on the tests and quizzes I always go back and re-read the question and answer choices a few times. I missed that extra negative. I'm not changing my answer... I'm still going with not calling the IFF based on the info in the question, thus making my choice "True". Too bad there's no eraser on the Internet

[basejester]

basejester, on a two stike count, if a batter squares to bunt and then ducks to get out of the way of a pitch coming at him, will you call him out if the pitch hits his bat and goes foul?

Ok, great question. Yes, I think so.

If that batter with two strikes squares to bunt with his dominant hand up the handle, sees the pitch is borderline inside, at the last second pulls the bat back but fouls it off, what do you have?

There's a standard for a strike (2-1 b. . . . a pitch is struck at and missed) but I'm not sure the same standard applies to a bunt attempt for a foul ball or IFF. I think a bunt attempt might not instantaneously end when the batter changes his mind.

Forgive me; I'm thinking aloud here.

[grayhawk]

basejester, on a two stike count, if a batter squares to bunt and then ducks to get out of the way of a pitch coming at him, will you call him out if the pitch hits his bat and goes foul?

Ok, great question. Yes, I think so.

If that batter with two strikes squares to bunt with his dominant hand up the handle, sees the pitch is borderline inside, at the last second pulls the bat back but fouls it off, what do you have?

There's a standard for a strike (2-1 b. . . . a pitch is struck at and missed) but I'm not sure the same standard applies to a bunt attempt for a foul ball or IFF. I think a bunt attempt might not instantaneously end when the batter changes his mind.

Forgive me; I'm thinking aloud here.

 

The key term, to me, on the study guide question is "ducks away."  At this moment, unless the batter makes an obvious attempt, then he is no longer bunting.  Since the question does not say he made an attempt, then I can only surmise that he has not.  Let's look at the definition of a bunt:

 

"A bunt is a fair ball in which the batter does not swing to hit the ball, but holds the bat in the path of the ball to tap it slowly to the infield."

 

If he's ducking away, then I can't see how he is holding the bat in the path of the ball.  He's trying to get out of dodge.

 

We have a study session tonight and I hope the guy running it has the answers that were done by the authors of the study guide.  Any any case, I think it will be an interesting discussion.

[grayhawk]

I emailed Ken Allan and here is his response:

 

Hi Steve:
The answer was miskeyed. The intent of the question is that even though the batter was squared to bunt he was not attempting to bunt when the ball was hit.  “Several feet in the air†indicates it was not a line drive thus “several feet in the air†on this question would fulfill the requirement of an infield fly. So, the correct answer should be false.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

 

Ken

 

So, it was a bad question because it was miskeyed.  I'm pretty sure Ken wrote the test, so I think we can put it to bed now. 

[basejester]

If that batter with two strikes squares to bunt with his dominant hand up the handle, sees the pitch is borderline inside, at the last second pulls the bat back but fouls it off, what do you have?

So, does the answer mean this is not a K?

[Richvee]

If that batter with two strikes squares to bunt with his dominant hand up the handle, sees the pitch is borderline inside, at the last second pulls the bat back but fouls it off, what do you have?

So, does the answer mean this is not a K?

Yep. So if the batter is pulling back and the ball strikes the bat, we've got a hit or foul and NOT a bunt attempt.  Chalk up another situation that may arise that I  now know how to correctly rule thanks to this site!   

[Jocko]

Remember, a legitimate bunt attempt includes the judgement of whether or not the batter attempted or offered at the pitch. If he's pulling back and bailing, he's definitely not attempting/offering. A foul is just a foul.

[noumpere]

If that batter with two strikes squares to bunt with his dominant hand up the handle, sees the pitch is borderline inside, at the last second pulls the bat back but fouls it off, what do you have?

So, does the answer mean this is not a K?

The purpose of the ouot on a foul bunt with two strikes is so the batter doesnt bunt 100 balls in a row foul to either get a walk or tire out the pitcher.  Hes not doing that if hes ducking away.  So its not an ouot.

[Rich Ives]

basejester, on a two stike count, if a batter squares to bunt and then ducks to get out of the way of a pitch coming at him, will you call him out if the pitch hits his bat and goes foul?

Ok, great question. Yes, I think so.

If that batter with two strikes squares to bunt with his dominant hand up the handle, sees the pitch is borderline inside, at the last second pulls the bat back but fouls it off, what do you have?

There's a standard for a strike (2-1 b. . . . a pitch is struck at and missed) but I'm not sure the same standard applies to a bunt attempt for a foul ball or IFF. I think a bunt attempt might not instantaneously end when the batter changes his mind.

Forgive me; I'm thinking aloud here.

 

 

In OBR at least it is abundantly clear because the bunt definition says "intentionally met" which thus excludes the ducking away scenario. Why does FED have to make the definition hard?