when is it too early too toss?

[bigblue89]

When is it too early too toss a manager from a game? Let me summarize the situation;

I was working a L.L. 11u tournament game tonight; its a round robin tournament that started last friday night and ive seen both of these teams already. Home team's coaches are nothing but class, i wish all teams were like them. The visitors on the other hand have done nothing but give headaches to everyone the whole tourney. The last time i had the visiting team they argued that i "blew " a call, with that said i love when coaches can only quote half a rule when they try and argue and forget about the parts that would go against their case, so needless to say there was no blown call. Before the start of the game we call the managers over for the ground rules like always and before we can even start the manager starts in with "so do you want to admit know that you were wrong the other night" my response was "so do you want to stay and watch this game from your bench?" coaches response " as soon as you say your wrong ill drop it" my response "Your gone" and tossed him. Like you predicted he went off like a rocket saying he cant be tossed before the game starts and lineups are exchanged. For this tourney they swap lineups in before they start infield and we never see them so that argument was null in void. That enlies my question though; there was nothing wrong with me tossing him before the first pitch was there?

[jnazz]

Any mention of a previous call from another game is automatic. Good dump.

[Umpire in Chief]

Good dump.

My suggestion would be when the coach comes to you saying, "so do you want to admit know that you were wrong the other night"

I'd reply, "Coach, we're not discussing that now."

Your response, "so do you want to stay and watch this game from your bench?" comes across confrontational and could be seen as baiting.

Either way once he continues down that road again easy EJ.

[mstaylor]

Ask Earl Weaver if you can tossed at the plate meeting. Good toss but listen to UIC's advice on response. The coach was going to get tossed anyway but it will make less like you are baiting him.

[yawetag]

I'd reply, "Coach, we're not discussing that now."

+1 all day.

[mstaylor]

There are several things that shouldn't be discussed at the plate but the two that pertain to this discussion are discussing history between you and the coach and history pertaining to another crew. In the former just say that it isn't open for discussion. If he pushes it, as in this case, he will dump himself. In the latter, tell him you can't discuss a call you didn't see or second guess another crew.

[Mr Umpire]

The earliest you can't toss a someone is before the game. Once you walk on the field, the game is starting and rules are applicable.

[MPLSMatt]

Just remember, this goes both ways - we can't say things like "last time I had your team you had a couple of guys that argued too much - keep them in line." We expect coaches not to discuss it either. Also, I find myself saying this a lot lately but really, you (the coach - not you) are going to be a prick over 11U?

[PeteBooth]

there was nothing wrong with me tossing him before the first pitch was there?

Your jursidiction begins as soon as you enter the field. You do not need one pitch before you can "do anything"

Example: It's been raining, hailing etc.

BEFORE you enter the field of play the decision to play the game or not rests with the HC. if the HC does not call the game and we enter the field, the decision whether to play the game is now OURS. We do not need a pitch. That is a myth. Do not get "hung-up" on needing a pitch.

As Warren mentioned in his post do not use threating words. It's no doubt this coach was going to get tossed so when he brought up the prior incident as Warren mentioned simply say "We are not going there today" The coach would have continued and you dump him. Same result but a different management technique.

Pete Booth

[spiritump]

The RAT tossed himself--good job

[yawetag]

Example: It's been raining, hailing etc.

BEFORE you enter the field of play the decision to play the game or not rests with the HC. if the HC does not call the game and we enter the field, the decision whether to play the game is now OURS. We do not need a pitch. That is a myth. Do not get "hung-up" on needing a pitch.

I agree that we don't need a pitch, but our jurisdiction for weather-related suspensions starts after we receive the lineup card from the home team.

OBR 3.10a: The home team shall be the sole judge as to whether a game shall not be started because of unsuitable weather conditions or the unfit condition of the playing field, except for the second game of a doubleheader.

OBR 4.01e: As soon as the home team’s batting order is handed to the umpire-in-chief the umpires are in charge of the playing field and from that moment the umpire-in-chief shall have sole authority to determine when a game shall be called, suspended or resumed on account of weather or the condition of the playing field.

[ukce1861]

I'd reply, "Coach, we're not discussing that now."

+1 all day.

The only thing I disagree with is, I'd drop the "now". A guy like this? We're not ever going to discuss it... Good dump, just be careful not to come off as a smart-alech - hard to do, I know...

[jkumpire]

Never too early to toss if the manager ejects himself, which is what he did. However, in LL maybe there out to be a little more rope given, since the overwhelming majority of coaches are parents who don't know how to dispute a call, and barely know how to coach their kids. Some are just as clueless with teaching the game as they are about the rules.

[Cajunyankee]

Here's a similar one I had a few years ago:

Day Two of two-day tournament. Elimination day or as we call it "Crybaby Sunday".

I've already seen this team once in the morning when my partner had the dish. HC complained all game about my partner's strike zone. Unfortunately, my partner was somewhat weak and didn't shut it down.

I actually stopped the chirping about the strike zone myself late in the game, just so I didn't have to hear it from the bases.

Anyway, second game for this team, plate meeting, I've got the dish now. Partner is there (of course). As we're starting the meeting, HC that was chirping for the whole first game says to me (2 feet from my partner) "I'm sure glad you're behind the plate. Maybe you'll call some F**king strikes."

Me: You're gone.

Him: Blah Blah, you can't, Blah Blah

Me: Silence. Staring off into space for a time.....

Him (Louder): Blah Blah......

After he was done and gone:

Me: Play.

Earliest ejection I've had, and one of the most cut-and-dry for sure.

Partner never did move to eject......Big pansy.

[mstaylor]

Some guys just don't understand game management, then they will complain about how much crap happens in their games. Shut it down early and the other stuff doesn't happen later. I know I have found myself in ugly situations because either my partner passed on an ejection or I did. Sometimes it's not even an ejection but just not shutting certain behaviors early. It escalates and then you have an ugly ejection or worse several ejections.

[Thunderheads]

Good dump.

My suggestion would be when the coach comes to you saying, "so do you want to admit know that you were wrong the other night"

I'd reply, "Coach, we're not discussing that now."

Your response, "so do you want to stay and watch this game from your bench?" comes across confrontational and could be seen as baiting.

Either way once he continues down that road again easy EJ.

Warren, ... in most cases I would agree with the bolded above, ...but in this case, ....sometimes a smart a$$ comment needs a smart a$$ response!! GOOD DUMP!!!

[NoCal Blue]

Big Blue,

UIC nailed it in terms of the tone of response. The spcecific verbiage you use is less important as long as you don't antagonize the situation. That said, we've all had those coaches that just get under our skin.

In terms of rules, you are in charge of the game at the plate. Usually it's official once your handed the first lineup card, as your tourny exchanged cards prior, my interpretation is that it became your field once you called them to the plate meeting.

As for the ejection, there is no one right answer. Each UIC has a style and tolerance level. As many have already said, should you have baited the coach....probably not. Would he have been dumped at some point.....sounds definite. In fact, I'm surprised he wasn't tossed in a previous game. Once your already down the path however, your decision was clear and tossing him at the plate meeting was the correct call.

For reference, I still work lower level games from time to time. Unless a coach curses at me directly, I'll look dead at him and say "that's a warning coach", if he contiues, He's gone. If he curses, creates an unsafe situation or is intentionally trying to disrupt the game, he gets no warning.

Don't remember who wrote it above but most younger teams are coached by volunteers with little to no training trying to live vicariously through the kids. These guys are usually the loudest ones on the field yelling at thier players and looking for someone to blame other than themselvs for EVERYTHING. The sooner we as officials "educate" these folks the better. If that comes in the form of an ejection then so be it. The hope is that the next time you work a game he participates in, he'll come correct.... If not, toss him again. He will learn eventually....after all it works for dogs and small children.

Cheers,

NoCal Blue

[plateumpire29]

Excellent toss. A few years ago I had to end a game when a coach wouldn't leave the field after being disqualified. A week later I'm on the plate for the same team. At the plate meeting, the coach asked me if there was still a problem. I told him that I had already forgotten about it and hoped that he had too. He smiled and thanked me. Didn't hear a peep out of him the entire game.

[mstaylor]

Excellent toss. A few years ago I had to end a game when a coach wouldn't leave the field after being disqualified. A week later I'm on the plate for the same team. At the plate meeting, the coach asked me if there was still a problem. I told him that I had already forgotten about it and hoped that he had too. He smiled and thanked me. Didn't hear a peep out of him the entire game.

That is an excellent response and exactly how it should work, new game/clean slate. I had a similar thing happen in a college double, I didn't toss but there was a lot said during the game. I told my partner I was in for a long plate on the second game, he agreed. We came to the plate meeting and the guy was as nice as could be, never mentioned it and never had a problem the second game. I wish more coaches had that ability, some umpires too for that matter.

[catsbackr]

IMO, college coaches have a much better sense of the game in a lot of cases.

The coach probably knew where he stood after the first game and was more than willing to have a short memory and concentrate on the second game, period.

[mstaylor]

IMO, college coaches have a much better sense of the game in a lot of cases.

The coach probably knew where he stood after the first game and was more than willing to have a short memory and concentrate on the second game, period.

Agreed.

[detailshp]

Good Toss, and good points about not baiting the coach, IMO. The only thing I would say is I tend to give more "rope" to coaches working the small diamonds and age groups because normally those are the people who talk the most and know the least. If you had just told him to drop it politely, he would have taken the extra rope ( or few moments to compose himself ) and probably hung himself anyway. Either way, I doubt anyone complained besides him and the hot headed parents of the kids on his team.

[mstaylor]

I agree that you let 60 ft coaches talk more, DO NOT let them yell or cross the line without tossing them. The conversations may be longer because they don't know, but there is still lines not to croosed. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. If he isn't aware of how far to go, the best way for him to remember is seeing the result. It is no different than warning balks. I absolutely hate leagues that do that because it teaches nothing. Call balks and toss coaches when needed and they will learn.

[dumbdumb]

I agree that you let 60 ft coaches talk more, DO NOT let them yell or cross the line without tossing them. The conversations may be longer because they don't know, but there is still lines not to croosed. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. If he isn't aware of how far to go, the best way for him to remember is seeing the result. It is no different than warning balks. I absolutely hate leagues that do that because it teaches nothing. Call balks and toss coaches when needed and they will learn.

Kind of like that time you touched the burner on the stove?

[IABlue]

My best friend works a lot of small college ball and a couple of years ago tossed a prominent DIII coach in our area during the pre-game meeting of the 2nd game of a DH because the coach was still criticizing something that had happened in the first game.

This same friend of mine also once threw a college coach out with 2 outs in the bottom of the 7th inning, plus I believe had the relatively new "post game" ejection that is available in NCAA ball now.

So he's pretty much been at both ends of the spectrum.