Warning or ignore?

[jkumpire]

Hi Men,

 

It's been a long time since i have been on here, I see a few familiar names, and I hope to come back more often. 

I'm getting old, I only had HC's come out three times all season, one guy came out twice, on obvious stuff. Irritating, but no big deal. 

Here's the one I have a question on: Legion level BB, 2 out, 6th inning, count 1-1. R2 running on the pitch. F2 catches, throws and hits the Batters bat, and the run scores off the deflection. There is no movement by the batter, he took the pitch, and never moved. Rare but routine call. 

Of course D team HC comes out (in a wheel chair due to injury) yelling about INF by the batter. He stops, quiets down, and I explain what I had, why I gave the safe sign and said 'That's nothing'. He said the batter moved his feet, I said he didn't move or commit INF on the play. 

He shakes his head, turns around, goes about 15 feet back to the dugout and then starts yelling and hollering "that interference, your're wrong, that's a terrible call, and then something else" directly at his bench and fans.  

At this point I loudly responded: "That's enough, if I hear anything else you're ejected." Thankfully, he quieted down. 

Okay, I'm old school, in the past when the HC has his say, shows his back, and heads to the dugout, we're done. However, when he started exploding again and yelling loudly to the stands, he's selling something to his team and fans/parents, and its not that I am a good umpire. 

My question: Should I have just let it go and let him yell, or was I right to give him a loud verbal warning about his behavior? 

Thanks for your opinions. 

 

 

    

 

[grayhawk]

Given that he's yelling it, a warning is merited at that level. Though, "If I hear anything else, you're ejected" wouldn't be my choice of words. What if he then says, "You're a great umpire."?  A simple, "That's your warning. If you continue to argue, you'll be ejected" would be my preference. Clear and to the point.

[The Man in Blue]

Agree with @grayhawk.  Umpires need to remove the word "IF" from our talking-to-coaches vocabulary.

Like you, @jkumpire, I find I am getting older and . . . I say grumpier, but I think it is just more fed up with the stupidity because I've seen enough of it.  That said, I have tried to go to a less is more approach.  I try to say nothing.  In the case you presented, I would have just held up the stop sign as he wheeled his way back.  Granted, his back is to you, but just as you said he is inciting the crowd, your message is more for them than him.

Recently had a grumbly AC (who had been making his dugout opinion on the strike zone very known) decide he wanted to approach me as he left his mound visit.  He made it 3 steps off he mound and I just held up the stop sign.  He stopped in his tracks and said, "What is that supposed to mean?"  I said, "It means you and I do not talk."  He slinked back to the dugout.

I'm finding the hand up stop sign is very effective.  If they want to create a show, it lets everybody know you aren't participating.  If they think they are being sly, it lets everybody know they aren't.

[wolfe_man]

...

[BigBlue4u]

17 hours ago, jkumpire said:

At this point I loudly responded: "That's enough, if I hear anything else you're ejected." Thankfully, he quieted down. 

These situations can become tricky.  On one hand, you want to control the game, on the other hand, within limits, you want to let the coach have his say.  Here's something to consider:  What would the coach's reaction been if, when he started to come toward you in his wheelchair, you said, "Coach, hold it, I'll come to you?" Think that, in itself, might have calmed him down a little. Also, as another poster stated, be careful about how you warn a coach. "Say another word and you will be ejected," pretty much puts you in a corner. Next time, try this:  With your hand in the stop sign position, "Coach you made your point.  If you continue, you may get ejected. This is your warning for the rest of this game." This way, you are in total control because you have given yourself the option of either ejecting him or not. Also, by doing this you have given him a choice.  If he does continue, and you do eject him, the hat is on him.  Additionally, in your ejection report you can add the three words assigners love to see, "I warned him."

[Coach Carl]

19 hours ago, jkumpire said:

He said the batter moved his feet, I said he didn't move or commit INF on the play. 

He was trying to get you to admit that you saw the batter move because if he did, you pretty much have to call the INT.  He probably had a better view than you did so maybe the batter did move his feet.  On a steal everything at the plate happens fast.  You may have still been processing the ball/strike judgement.  Your eyes are 5-6 feet off the ground and the batters feet are 3-4 feet away.    Who's looking down at the batter's feet at that point?   And then, "ping", the ball hits the bat.  In my mind, unless the batter's movement is obvious, I wouldn't expect that call.  

[Velho]

36 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

In my mind, unless the batter's movement is obvious, I wouldn't expect that call.  

Observed one of these the other night in 12U OBR. LH batter, catcher makes no attempt to get around the batter - just wings it. Batter was in the box, moving backwards as he relaxed following ball call. In box as the throw goes off side of his helmet. If he had remained dead still, there would have been contact.

No call, R1 advanced. DC asked but didn't push too hard.

[SeeingEyeDog]

So, what we're talking about here is what author George Thompson famously calls in his book..."verbal judo", the art of persuasion. Or as they say in the diplomatic service, "How To Tell Someone To Go Eff Themselves And Make Them Think It Was Their Idea"...

We could probably do an entire thread on this, perhaps there was one previously so, shame on me for double-posting I guess. Some of my favorites are, "Coach, what do I have to do to keep you in this game today/tonight?" (careful with that one, it's meant to be rhetorical...your sub-optimally read coaches will not know this and might actually respond...)

"This is your warning/This is your verbal warning/This is your written warning...if you continue, you will be restricted to the dugout/ejected."

The one I've had a lot of success with this year, "Coach...what is your QUESTION, please?" This one has really been shutting them down because you are moving them to a question...or trying to. Most times, a coach doesn't have a question...they just want to come out and complain. Could leave you vulnerable to getting zinged with something like, "Yeah...I got a question, when are you going to start getting 'em right?" so, read the situation. Get them to a legit question about the play answer it, watch for them double-backing and say, "Coach...asked and answered. You are repeating yourself. Please return to your dugout/coach's box."

But as @The Man in Blue said...the good ol' fashioned stop sign is always in fashion. It is especially effective when paired with, "TIME! (remove mask, come to the edge of the dirt circle)" and then you can opt for, "Coach, stop!" or "Coach, let's not have any more of that, please."

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

18 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

The one I've had a lot of success with this year, "Coach...what is your QUESTION, please?" This one has really been shutting them down because you are moving them to a question...or trying to. Most times, a coach doesn't have a question...they just want to come out and complain. Could leave you vulnerable to getting zinged with something like, "Yeah...I got a question, when are you going to start getting 'em right?" so, read the situation. Get them to a legit question about the play answer it, watch for them double-backing and say, "Coach...asked and answered. You are repeating yourself. Please return to your dugout/coach's box."

But as @The Man in Blue said...the good ol' fashioned stop sign is always in fashion. It is especially effective when paired with, "TIME! (remove mask, come to the edge of the dirt circle)" and then you can opt for, "Coach, stop!" or "Coach, let's not have any more of that, please."

~Dawg

 

Little tangent . . . I have a lot of respect for a coach who quietly comes out and tells you he just needs to say his peace/piece -- either for the show or for his peace of mind. Tell me up front you don't have a question and respectfully tell me you aren't happy.  I may do the same.  Then we can move on.

I know that second part is imparted as a time-told tactic and wisdom for younger umpires, but I will hold to the fact that I don't like it and don't want to see an umpire do it.  IMO, that is too aggressive.  Stopping the game, leaving your position, and calling attention to the misbehavior just doesn't set well with me.  IMO, and just my opinion, this IS making it about you.  IMO, never change your stature or position to give a stop sign.  A head turn and a hand up are enough.  Don't remove your mask.  I know many will disagree.

[Kevin_K]

I like this approach sometimes. 

 

[jkumpire]

Just to add a couple other items (or so) to discussion: 

1. This was the 2nd time the HC had talked to me about a play in the game, one of the four or five times combined both sides went after my young, rather inexperienced partner. The first conversation was fine, no problem, about a BR going out of the runners lane, and if F3 tagged the BR as he got around him. During the game I was asked more times about appeals of my partner's calls that a crooked politician makes appeals after a conviction. 

2. Yes, as I teach umpires in our HS assn., Ignorance, look, verbal warning, written warning, ejection. However, in these circumstances going right to a forceful response (not perfectly phrased I agree) seemed appropriate.  As an old friend and mentor who taught me more about officiating than anyone, who has long passed on, said at pre-game captain's meetings: "You will both have an equal chance to win the game. I'm not going to screw anything up, and I'm not letting you screw it up either." 

In that moment, in a tight, important ballgame, I judged that his behavior was going to ruin the game for the players, so I was more forceful than usual. It did work, both sides were quite quiet the rest of the game.  

3. I hate to admit this, but at my age, with a 90+ degree temp, almost 100% humidity, and a very high 'feels like temperature', I let my tiredness get in the way of my mind in that moment. I still believe I did the right thing, but doing it differently would have been much better. 

4. My partner for the game did a nice job, though he made a couple fundamental mistakes that caused him some problems, but overall I was impressed for the quality of his work for a young umpire. Most of all he loved being out there in a pressure situation. Kid has a future in umpiring if he keeps at it. 

Thank you for your comments, keep them coming! 

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

On 7/16/2025 at 8:05 PM, jkumpire said:

 

2. Yes, as I teach umpires in our HS assn., Ignorance, look, verbal warning, written warning, ejection.

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

I stand corrected...

Jerry Lane (above in the YouTube clip, thank you @Kevin_K!) and @jkumpire's I/L/VW/WW/EJ are all anyone needs to know about game management...

~Dawg 

[maven]

7 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I stand corrected...

Jerry Lane (above in the YouTube clip, thank you @Kevin_K!) and @jkumpire's I/L/VW/WW/EJ are all anyone needs to know about game management...

~Dawg 

Only if they are MLB umpires with Jerry Lane's ability and résumé. 

Amateur umpires need to know a lot more, at least if they plan to keep working.

And I know that you're likely making a rhetorical point about Jerry Lane, but not everyone will necessarily read your post that way.

[maven]

On 7/16/2025 at 9:05 PM, jkumpire said:

I hate to admit this, but at my age, with a 90+ degree temp, almost 100% humidity, and a very high 'feels like temperature', I let my tiredness get in the way of my mind in that moment. I still believe I did the right thing, but doing it differently would have been much better. 

How DARE you be human. Umpiring is no activity for mere mortals.

[BrainFreeze]

On 7/16/2025 at 7:21 PM, Kevin_K said:

I like this approach sometimes. 

 

This would make a great Jomboy (Classic Edition)

[BigBlue4u]

7 minutes ago, BrainFreeze said:

This would make a great Jomboy (Classic Edition)

Well, we don't need JomBoy to translate Mike's final words:  "That's effing b.s."

[BrainFreeze]

5 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

Well, we don't need JomBoy to translate Mike's final words:  "That's effing b.s."

I think a lot of the translating (?) before that would be pretty entertaining.  Probably a lot of Scioscia saying that he had no FEEEEL  for the game.  And how unfair it was that he was getting the silent treatment?  

 

What'd you do that for? Why?  Just like that?  Just like that, you run me?  

Is that what you're gonna do? the whole time?  

You can't do that Jerry.  i deserve better than that, you're better than that Jerry, come on!

[StatsUmp]

On 7/16/2025 at 9:05 PM, jkumpire said:

4. My partner for the game did a nice job, though he made a couple fundamental mistakes that caused him some problems, but overall I was impressed for the quality of his work for a young umpire. Most of all he loved being out there in a pressure situation. Kid has a future in umpiring if he keeps at it.

I hope you were able to give him constructive post-game feedback about those mistakes and have him be receptive to it. Good new/young umpires who show potential and the willingness to learn need that feedback to become better, respected, and reliable umpires who want to keep at it.

[Thatsnotyou]

On 7/16/2025 at 5:48 PM, The Man in Blue said:

 

Little tangent . . . I have a lot of respect for a coach who quietly comes out and tells you he just needs to say his peace/piece -- either for the show or for his peace of mind. Tell me up front you don't have a question and respectfully tell me you aren't happy.  I may do the same.  Then we can move on.

I know that second part is imparted as a time-told tactic and wisdom for younger umpires, but I will hold to the fact that I don't like it and don't want to see an umpire do it.  IMO, that is too aggressive.  Stopping the game, leaving your position, and calling attention to the misbehavior just doesn't set well with me.  IMO, and just my opinion, this IS making it about you.  IMO, never change your stature or position to give a stop sign.  A head turn and a hand up are enough.  Don't remove your mask.  I know many will disagree.

I’ll indeed disagree a bit. I try to do as much as I can with the mask on and a stop sign. As a general rule, yes. Mask on, don’t walk a bunch. The mask off, as things progress, is another physical cue to show them  unless they have no feel - that they are about to be restricted or ejected. At some point, a lot of words with the mask on, from a distance, looks a bit off.

I don’t use it often, but the mask off stop sign with “enough” or whatever usually gets good results. Either way, I’m letting them play a choose your own adventure game. 
 

I’m not a guy that says things about what I will do next if they do/don’t do X, or this will be an ejection etc. Try to get them to stop. They know what happens if they don’t. It’s (likely) not their first baseball game. 

[The Man in Blue]

5 hours ago, Thatsnotyou said:

At some point, a lot of words with the mask on, from a distance, looks a bit off.

Don't do that.

I guess the way I see it, once you take the mask off, you are part of the show. If you want everybody to know, whip the mask off and be loud. If you want to manage the game, be more discreet. Part of the coach's main weapon set is trying to get the crowd riled up. Take that weapon away.

I see it the same way as a kid showing out in class: they want attention and an audience, so remove that fuel.

That said . . . yes, there are times to fight fire with fire. They usually don't turn out well, but I won't be so naive to claim they don't exist.

[Thatsnotyou]

I don’t. Hence I said take the mask off if you need to use more words or up the ante. 
 

You can argue we’re not part of the show, but we’re also not there to listen to yelling nonsense. You want to keep your mask on and be quiet the whole time, great. 
 

I described the way in which I use it. Pick your spots. It’s another step before an ejection, is the way I see it. 

[The Man in Blue]

I think that is a great example of "pick what works for you" and that there is not a one-size-fits-all answer.  Situations vary as do umpire personalities.

Although, I think you are misreading my method by thinking I am saying "keep your mask on and be quiet the whole time."  Far from it.

My personal opinion, an umpire should never be "upping the ante" though.

 

 

[834k3r]

5 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

My personal opinion, an umpire should never be "upping the ante" though.

💯💯💯💯💯

[Velho]

Tangent: fellow umpire was trying to keep a coach in the game (who had easily crossed into EJ territory through persistent and prolonged chatter). PU asked him awkwardly : do you not want to stay in this game? Coach said Yes! PU EJ’d him.

Moral of the story: Avoid sarcasm and idioms. Keep it clear and concise.