Inside pick off move

[albert]

This high school coach has a " play"..... right hand pitcher,runner on 1st

Pitcher picks up non-pivot foot ( left ) VERY SLOWLY.....if runner attempts t steal 2nd the 1st baseman yells and the pitcher continues his move inside towards 2nd base in front the runner.

I have argued this is absolutely a balk.

[albert]

As a 1st base coach I have taught players ( when stealing 2nd on RHP ) to watch the pitchers front foot heel, when it's lifted ,runner for 2nd.

[Kevin_K]

People have argued many things throughout human history - the earth is flat, the geocentric model of the solar system, certain races are inherently superior to others - including a pitcher throwing to an unoccupied base is a balk.

Unlike the other examples, the throw to an unoccupied base can be a balk. Or it may not be. If F1 throws to an unoccupied base it isn't a balk if its for the purpose of making a play. This is true in all rule sets.

Similar misunderstandings abound within the baseball world. Ideas like the hands are part of the bat, tie goes to the runner, a ball hit off the plate is a foul ball, and runners must slide to avoid contact continue to confound the educated and confuse the uninformed.

Most rule sets (thanks NFHS) are available free on the Internet. They are a really good winter read.

 

[DevildogUmp]

@albert The first question that needs to be answered is why do you believe it is a balk? I am going to assume based on your second post that you are a coach. When this happens in a game and the umpire does not call a balk, what reasoning, using the rule book, are you going to use when you discuss this with him?

Based on the situation you provided; I don't have a balk.

[NavyBlue]

Do you think it's a balk because...

1) his footwork has committed him to the pitch;

2) he's not allowed to throw to an unoccupied base;

3) some other reason?

[834k3r]

His motion to the plate has not started simply by raising his non-pivot leg.

I posit the defense found a way to counter aggressive baserunning.

[grayhawk]

No balk but it gets even worse. Even if R1 doesn't actually attempt to steal, but does a hard fake and then returns, it's STILL not a balk because the pitcher's action can be interpreted as "driving back a runner." 6-2-4b

[SeeingEyeDog]

@albert, for the high school rulebook (NFHS...or FED as we refer to it), rule 6 covers everything one needs to know about the rules related to pitching.

~Dawg

[maven]

On 12/1/2024 at 3:02 PM, albert said:

This high school coach has a " play"..... right hand pitcher,runner on 1st

Pitcher picks up non-pivot foot ( left ) VERY SLOWLY.....if runner attempts t steal 2nd the 1st baseman yells and the pitcher continues his move inside towards 2nd base in front the runner.

I have argued this is absolutely a balk.

Did you argue that it was a balk, or merely claim (loudly? repeatedly?) that it was?

If it was a genuine argument, what were the premises? A balk is an illegal act by a pitcher, and illegal acts are those prohibited by rule. What rule did F1 violate?

In fact, no baseball rule dictates the speed at which F1 must step in the "step and then throw/feint" requirement. It does have to be continuous and uninterrupted, but nothing here suggests it failed in those respects.

Ugly ≠ illegal

[Tog Gee]

On 12/3/2024 at 6:58 AM, maven said:

In fact, no baseball rule dictates the speed at which F1 must step in the "step and then throw/feint" requirement. It does have to be continuous and uninterrupted, but nothing here suggests it failed in those respects.

I know that a pitching motion must be "continuous and uninterrupted", and I believe this is true for a pickoff move, but how does the rulebook support "continuous and uninterrupted" requirement on a pickoff? 

[noumpere]

1) Don't start and stop.

2) Don't start one thing and then start (or do) another.

[MadMax]

On 12/13/2024 at 1:14 PM, Tog Gee said:

but how does the rulebook support "continuous and uninterrupted" requirement on a pickoff?

In all codes, sans a legal disengagement (ie. “stepping back”), there must be a step (direction and distance) towards 1B, and a throw. For everything besides NFHS, this must be done for 3B as well. In all codes, there doesn’t need to be a throw to 2B, merely a step towards (of some kind) 2B. 

The step towards the base is the disengagement. The reason I state this is, once that first step goes towards 2B (or towards 3B in NFHS), then the F1 has satisfied the rule, and he can go & throw anywhere. 

There is no measurable “time” component to this – more like a logic checkbox. 

1. Did he (legally) disengage? If yes, then he’s (now) a fielder. If no, then proceed to next → 
2. Did he step towards the occupied base? If no, then this is (likely) a Balk (unless he’s stepping towards and throwing to a destination base while the Runner is actually stealing (Umpire’s judgement on that)). If yes, then next → 
3. Did he throw? If yes, then play continues. If no, then next → 
4. Is the base being stepped towards 1B? If yes, then Balk. If no, then next → 
5. Is the base being stepped towards 3B? If yes, and the ruleset is NOT NFHS, then Balk. If no, or the ruleset is NFHS, then next → 
6. Is the base being stepped towards 2B? If yes, then play continues… 

Granted, I oversimplified it, but that’s the basics. 

[Tog Gee]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

Granted, I oversimplified it, but that’s the basics. 

But as for lifting the leg, pausing, then picking off to a base...

How does the rulebook cover that?

 

The rule book is clear about not pausing  when pitching. 

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, Tog Gee said:

But as for lifting the leg, pausing, then picking off to a base...

How does the rulebook cover that?

 

The rule book is clear about not pausing  when pitching. 

Completely pausing while pitching, feinting, or throwing is a balk. 

[jimurrayalterego]

2 hours ago, Tog Gee said:

But as for lifting the leg, pausing, then picking off to a base...

How does the rulebook cover that?

 

The rule book is clear about not pausing  when pitching. 

Yes, and thus it is a balk for this:

"(a) Balks If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when:

(1) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;"

We don't know what F1 is intending to do so when he hangs his leg he failed to make delivery.

But thank you for making us get into the rulebook. At first glance we would just say he hung his leg. 

[Tog Gee]

56 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

We don't know what F1 is intending to do so when he hangs his leg he failed to make delivery

Bingo. Thank you!

I "knew" it was illegal, but I didn't know exactly why.

[jimurrayalterego]

38 minutes ago, Tog Gee said:

Bingo. Thank you!

I "knew" it was illegal, but I didn't know exactly why.

Me neither, till you asked the question.

[834k3r]

21 hours ago, Replacematt said:

Completely pausing while pitching, feinting, or throwing is a balk. 

 

23 hours ago, Tog Gee said:

But as for lifting the leg, pausing, then picking off to a base...

How does the rulebook cover that?

 

The rule book is clear about not pausing  when pitching. 

The OP mentions only movement, albeit slow, and no pause. If the pitcher moves his leg an inch per hour (exaggeration, but you get my point) it's movement and not a pause. Once he pauses, sure:  balk it 'til the cows come home. But a slow movement of the non-pivot foot is not balk-able.

[Tog Gee]

16 hours ago, 834k3r said:

The OP mentions only movement, albeit slow, and no pause.

Yeah I kinda hijacked the thread in asking for rule-proof that one cannot pause on a pickoff:

 

On 12/3/2024 at 6:58 AM, maven said:

step in the "step and then throw/feint" requirement. It does have to be continuous and uninterrupted, but nothing here suggests it failed in those respects.

 

[SleptTilNoonLOL]

Wouldnt this move be extremely effective in situations like a 3-2 count with 2 outs if you are leading by a few runs and the risk of a balk is well worth the chance that you will catch the runner? I was a fairly smart baserunner as a HS player and when stealing against a RHP I left 100% of the time when the pitcher lifted his front foot. I agree with what everyone is saying about it being legal in the rulebook, but why have I never seen this done by a pitcher in 40 years of watching and playing baseball from little league to MLB? Have others seen it?

[jimurrayalterego]

32 minutes ago, SleptTilNoonLOL said:

Wouldnt this move be extremely effective in situations like a 3-2 count with 2 outs if you are leading by a few runs and the risk of a balk is well worth the chance that you will catch the runner? I was a fairly smart baserunner as a HS player and when stealing against a RHP I left 100% of the time when the pitcher lifted his front foot. I agree with what everyone is saying about it being legal in the rulebook, but why have I never seen this done by a pitcher in 40 years of watching and playing baseball from little league to MLB? Have others seen it?

“Make sure he goes home”