Play at the plate

[Jglopez7]

Play at home. Do you have obstruction then awarding home? Illegal slide per NFHS Rules? Or nothing. Video is too large to attach  Here is the link  

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PwQEErqkZJ3a8nG9b9Uj38kfOGP22pVa/view?usp=drivesdk

[Vegas_Ump]

IMO I got nothing.  F2 was way far to the right of the plate, so it would have been impossible to obstruct.  The throw came in but the ball only hit the mitt--it was not caught.  The catcher was trying to make play, and he left plenty of space for the runner to advance towards the plate.

Didn't see a collision in the context of trucking the catcher; rather, the runner slid into the catcher's foot and upended him.

I think both players were doing what they needed to do legally.

Mike

Las Vegas

[Kevin_K]

F2 was blocking the base path without the ball, so, by rule, obstruction is appropriate, but to what end? R3 scored without any award or any call. What would the benefit be if making this call?

This reminds me of when a batter hits a foul ball that everyone knows is a foul ball. If an umpire audibly calls a ball fouled over the backstop as a foul ball does it make any difference?

My .02. YMMV

[noumpere]

5 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

This reminds me of when a batter hits a foul ball that everyone knows is a foul ball. If an umpire audibly calls a ball fouled over the backstop as a foul ball does it make any difference?

It makes a difference as to how the umpire is perceived by the coaches/ players / fans. (To be clear, the umpire is more negatively perceived.)

[Jimurray]

7 minutes ago, noumpere said:

It makes a difference as to how the umpire is perceived by the coaches/ players / fans. (To be clear, the umpire is more negatively perceived.)

And he would be negatively perceived by fellow umpires for calling foul ball when it is foul. Except I've decided that ex players who can't break the habit are excused.

[maven]

I don't think this is OBS, because F2 doesn't block the runner's access to the base.

 

Here's the moment the slide is starting. The runner can get to the back of the plate. He happens to slide right into F2's foot (ow), but that doesn't constitute OBS. After the contact, they end up in a pile on the 3B side of HP, so it looks like more blockage than it is.

It's also bang-bang: the ones we want to get are the big ones, where F2 sets up in the baseline or moves there as the runner is still 30 feet from the plate or more. Stay off the ones where the blockage occurs so late, or indeed where it wouldn't have been illegal had F2 caught the throw. Those are the ones that make us look like we're "inserting ourselves into the game" or whatever. (Just my recommendation...)

That umpire won't see much of anything from there, BTW.

[SeeingEyeDog]

I like the mechanic of calling OBS even if the run does score. I had an OBS this weekend on R2 rounding 3B. The ball is down fair near the RF fence, F9 is still running it down and F5 obstructs R2. Logic dictates this run is going to score but, the rules don't say if the umpire thinks the run is going to score they need not signal the obstruction. It lets everyone know that you are engaged in the game and you saw it and you're calling it. Obviously, it's a little different on OBS at the plate and the run scoring nearly immediately but again, I am still calling it to demonstrate I am engaged and I saw it. We have enough to think about out there without having to also think, "Was it obvious that run was going to score?"

~Dawg

[834k3r]

1 hour ago, maven said:

That umpire won't see much of anything from there, BTW.

I was just wondering that myself. Why was PU 1BLX, not off the catcher's hip or at least 3BLX? Did he get caught ball watching?

[BigBlue4u]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

It makes a difference as to how the umpire is perceived by the coaches/ players / fans. (To be clear, the umpire is more negatively perceived.)

Point taken.  Question:  What signal would you give on this play?  Would the "safe" signal for beating the throw be any different from a "safe" signal because of obstruction?

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

Point taken.  Question:  What signal would you give on this play?  Would the "safe" signal for beating the throw be any different from a "safe" signal because of obstruction?

Because of the timing, I just give the safe on the play.  I would likely talk to the catcher about blocking the plate.

[maven]

7 hours ago, 834k3r said:

I was just wondering that myself. Why was PU 1BLX, not off the catcher's hip or at least 3BLX? Did he get caught ball watching?

This was a mechanic taught 20+ years ago. Could be an old timer.

[The Man in Blue]

9 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I like the mechanic of calling OBS even if the run does score. I had an OBS this weekend on R2 rounding 3B. The ball is down fair near the RF fence, F9 is still running it down and F5 obstructs R2. Logic dictates this run is going to score but, the rules don't say if the umpire thinks the run is going to score they need not signal the obstruction. It lets everyone know that you are engaged in the game and you saw it and you're calling it. Obviously, it's a little different on OBS at the plate and the run scoring nearly immediately but again, I am still calling it to demonstrate I am engaged and I saw it. We have enough to think about out there without having to also think, "Was it obvious that run was going to score?"

~Dawg

 

The bang-bang quick score may be different, but I 100% agree with Dawg that we should call when we see it regardless.  More than once I have had a coach asking me "Did you see the first baseman obstruct my runner?" even thought it was a clean double or triple.  In my early years, I wasn't making this call as I thought it was unnecessary.  Over the years I've learned a better answer than just "Yes" is, "Did you not see me call it when it happened?"  (Which is usually followed with, "Oh, is that what you were pointing at?" 🙄)

[MadMax]

20 hours ago, 834k3r said:

I was just wondering that myself. Why was PU 1BLX, not off the catcher's hip or at least 3BLX? Did he get caught ball watching?

 

13 hours ago, maven said:

This was a mechanic taught 20+ years ago. Could be an old timer.

This mechanic / positioning is also maintained by Softball. Could be a “bilingual umpire”… with a bunch of malapropisms and “missed translations”. 

[EDIT: Finally watched video; this is NFHS Network, huh?] 

This is 3-man, with R3 only, and the PU got caught – whether by age or inattentiveness – following a/the diagram instead of adjusting to the play as it unfolded… 

With R3 present, and < 2 outs, School / General Clinics (that don’t quite get into plate work specifically yet), on a fly ball to the outfield, PU is directed to step back and to the 3B side. This is to put the catching action and the R3 (potentially) tagging in his same field of view, as best as possible (ABAP, hf.). Then, as R3 departs the bag, step aggressively back to and thru PoP and get to the right hip of the F2. Because this off-F2’s-hip approach isn’t taught in detail until more advanced clinic sessions, any diagrams (eg. NFHS manuals, association training materials, etc.) are going to direct to go towards 3BLX as a “staging point” or landmark to get to, ABAP. Once there, then acquire the F2’s hip, and that “window / wedge / train tracks” work (is supposed to) take(s) over. 

More experienced PUs skip that deliberated series of steps, and often go right from PoP to off the F2’s hip quite fluidly. 

The fly ball didn’t really achieve a high apex either, which didn’t give PU much time. However, U1 did go out. One of my fellow Vultures points out that that could (his words: should) be a trigger to prompt PU to swing at least to 3BLX so as to “help” U1 by observing BRs touch of 1B. If the ball falls as a hit, R3 doesn’t have to tag. PU has no catch/no-catch responsibility anyway, because U1 is there. And, if the ball is caught, it’s rather easy to observe the catch out of the side of the eye, and then immediately pivot focus to R3 departing 3B. 

This PU got “stuck”. It actually turned into a collision play… somewhat. 

 

[NorthTexasUmp]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

 

This is 3-man, with R3 only, and the PU got caught – whether by age or inattentiveness – following a/the diagram instead of adjusting to the play as it unfolded… 

 

 

It is actually 4-man.

[MadMax]

31 minutes ago, NorthTexasUmp said:

It is actually 4-man.

[Rewatches] 

Argh! Curse this tiny screen! 

There’s U2! In the “Echo” (E) position. 

But that doesn’t change things for PU. In fact, I’m wondering why U2 didn’t come in (towards 2B cutout) with more pace… he seems to be planted out there at E. PU still went to the 3B side of HPC and stayed; instead, he could have started that direction, but then dynamically adjusted and stepped across towards 3BLX to prepare for an oncoming throw from RF to plate, and R3 tagging. 

Experience influences this. This is impossible to teach to a 2-man mindset. 

[JSam21]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

[Rewatches] 

Argh! Curse this tiny screen! 

There’s U2! In the “Echo” (E) position. 

But that doesn’t change things for PU. In fact, I’m wondering why U2 didn’t come in (towards 2B cutout) with more pace… he seems to be planted out there at E. PU still went to the 3B side of HPC and stayed; instead, he could have started that direction, but then dynamically adjusted and stepped across towards 3BLX to prepare for an oncoming throw from RF to plate, and R3 tagging. 

Experience influences this. This is impossible to teach to a 2-man mindset. 

In the 4 umpire system, I would have likely tossed this catch/no catch to U2 since it brings F9 towards center or more than likely not gone out on it at all as U1. 

As a plate umpire, we have to get comfortable with NOT moving as soon as the ball is hit once we start working 3 and 4 umpire systems. This play, mask comes off and we just hang out point of plate in the 4 umpire system. 

[834k3r]

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

As a plate umpire, we have to get comfortable with NOT moving as soon as the ball is hit once we start working 3 and 4 umpire systems. This play, mask comes off and we just hang out point of plate in the 4 umpire system. 

This, 💯.

I haven't worked any big field 4-man games, but what you say is absolutely true for 3-man games in my experience. We "grow up" in a 2-man system, always moving to get the proper reads, and (for me at least) the most understated, difficult thing is to not move--especially as U1.