NFHS courtesy runners

[TopHat64]

NFHS rules. Offensive team pinch-hits for their pitcher. That pinch hitter walks. Offensive HC says that that pinch hitter will be the pitcher next inning. Is he allowed to use a courtesy runner here? I know that courtesy runners must be for the pitcher of record. Does pinch-hitting for the pitcher make that PH the new pitcher of record? Thanks

[beerguy55]

If it truly is "pitcher of record" that is the standard, I'd say no.  If, for example, HT is behind 3-2 and takes the lead in the bottom of the inning and goes on to win 9-3, the pitcher of record for the win would be the one who ended the top half inning as the pitcher...not the guy who pinch ran for him.

Anyway - I can't seem to find it, but I seem to recall reading that a pinch hitter may not have a courtesy runner.

[noumpere]

Can not have a CR for the PH.  It's for the pitcher that ended the last inning (exception if this happens in the top of the first).

[Senor Azul]

From the 2023 NFHS rule book rule 3-1-1:

...Projected substitutions are not allowed...

You may find these case plays helpful:

3.1.1 Situation E

3.1.2 Situation C

[The Man in Blue]

Illinois doesn't use courtesy runners in baseball, so I had never really looked at that section of the book.  Interesting that it is not clear on that.

In softball, they do explicitly say the pitcher and catcher are the people who last played those positions on defense, regardless of offensive substitutions.

 

[johnnyg08]

Nope. That's a projected substitute which is prohibited by rule. Do not allow the courtesy runner. 

[The Man in Blue]

I can see the jump to "projected substitute" (assuming the player will take the defensive position) but I'm not sure that is totally accurate verbiage.  It's better suited to follow the logical steps and just call it what it is

The position in the batting line up is not tied to the position on defense.  A pinch hitter is a substitution into the batting line-up, not onto the field.  Just because you bat in the 9th spot (or whichever) does not make you the pitcher or the catcher.  (Use the same logic as the split DH rule.)

If the player stays in, it is presumed they will fill that defensive position, however they are not required to take that position or even any position.  Batting in that slot simply does not make them the defensive player in that position.

[Jimurray]

33 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I can see the jump to "projected substitute" (assuming the player will take the defensive position) but I'm not sure that is totally accurate verbiage.  It's better suited to follow the logical steps and just call it what it is

The position in the batting line up is not tied to the position on defense.  A pinch hitter is a substitution into the batting line-up, not onto the field.  Just because you bat in the 9th spot (or whichever) does not make you the pitcher or the catcher.  (Use the same logic as the split DH rule.)

If the player stays in, it is presumed they will fill that defensive position, however they are not required to take that position or even any position.  Batting in that slot simply does not make them the defensive player in that position.

The projected substitute rule was only designed to preclude courtesy runners for pinch hitters or pinch runners. Some umpires morph it into a coach can't make a projected sub on offense such as subbing the 1,2,3 batters with one visit to the ump. The rule does not prevent that as it is also not prohibited in the other codes. If a coach wants to handcuff himself with a new lineup that half inning he can do it. He can even give you a sub for the eight batter of the half inning and tell you he's going to go in for #whatever, the CF. We sub the numbers and don't care where they play as we know the only players they can courtesy run for.

[noumpere]

On 3/22/2024 at 8:04 PM, The Man in Blue said:

Illinois doesn't use courtesy runners in baseball,

 

When did that change?  They used it in 2016

[The Man in Blue]

Courtesy runners are in the “speed up” rules that have to be state association adopted.  The only adoption IHSA has made (verified with Sam Knox last week) is the mercy run-rules.

[noumpere]

Talked to an IL umpire (Chicago area).  CR is still being used.

 

Is TMIB not using it?  (Or, maybe you don't do HS -- I forget.)

 

Don't know where the disconnect with Sam came from, but I'd ask a rules interpreter (a specific committee within IL for each sport; not just your association rules guy) and I'd be specific:  These are the xx items listed on the rules book.  Which does IL use?

[The Man in Blue]

On 3/23/2024 at 8:52 PM, Jimurray said:

The projected substitute rule was only designed to preclude courtesy runners for pinch hitters or pinch runners. Some umpires morph it into a coach can't make a projected sub on offense such as subbing the 1,2,3 batters with one visit to the ump. The rule does not prevent that as it is also not prohibited in the other codes. If a coach wants to handcuff himself with a new lineup that half inning he can do it. He can even give you a sub for the eight batter of the half inning and tell you he's going to go in for #whatever, the CF. We sub the numbers and don't care where they play as we know the only players they can courtesy run for.

 

That doesn't even make sense.  3-1-1 says, quite plainly, "Projected substitutions are not allowed."  That covers all substitutions. 

Coaches cannot sub batters 1, 2, and 3 in one go.  Each one has to occur when they come up.

Courtesy runners are a state adoption.  To claim that a written rule actually allows the very thing that it prevents is a bit baffling.  To further claim that it only exists to cover a state adopted addendum is even more baffling.

I understand where the connection from courtesy runner to projected substitution is made, but it still isn't accurate to call the courtesy runner the projected sub.  The players involved in the substitution to "activate" the courtesy are the projected subs.

[The Man in Blue]

12 hours ago, noumpere said:

Talked to an IL umpire (Chicago area).  CR is still being used.

 

Is TMIB not using it?  (Or, maybe you don't do HS -- I forget.)

 

Don't know where the disconnect with Sam came from, but I'd ask a rules interpreter (a specific committee within IL for each sport; not just your association rules guy) and I'd be specific:  These are the xx items listed on the rules book.  Which does IL use?

 

Sam Knox is the state director for IHSA Baseball and assistant executive director for IHSA.  Last week, I reached out to find out where to find the "codification" of any state adoptions from the Speed Up Rules from NFHS.  His direct quote was, "The only state adoptions we have in baseball are the run rules/mercy rules.  15 after 4, 10 after 5.  Have a great season!"

I will reach out to him and one the clinicians for clarification.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

That doesn't even make sense.  3-1-1 says, quite plainly, "Projected substitutions are not allowed."  That covers all substitutions. 

Coaches cannot sub batters 1, 2, and 3 in one go.  Each one has to occur when they come up.

Courtesy runners are a state adoption.  To claim that a written rule actually allows the very thing that it prevents is a bit baffling.  To further claim that it only exists to cover a state adopted addendum is even more baffling.

I understand where the connection from courtesy runner to projected substitution is made, but it still isn't accurate to call the courtesy runner the projected sub.  The players involved in the substitution to "activate" the courtesy are the projected subs.

I had a wild occurrence quite a few years ago posted on UE. Somewhere in the thread was a confirmation that FED only cared about defensive subs being announced before they were on defence. But I don't recall a definition of projected subs in FED and if a coach wanted to give you a change to all 9 lineups while you were counting 5 pitches he could do it. You, of course would have left your three balls in the batters box while you took the subs. IN NCAA and OBR the sub is in when the coach reports it. By rule in FED the sub is in when the umpire announces it and he can announce it at the time it is told to him. As the caseplay shows you can't sub for a player who has not been in the game yet.

[johnnyg08]

The entire purpose of the projected substitution rule is to prevent this exact scenario. 

Here's a play from the 2017 Preseason Guide

[The Man in Blue]

I think you are misunderstanding that … not the end result, but the reason.  
 

That does not say “the reason for the courtesy runner rule is …”  

It says the reason you cannot courtesy run for that player is that the substitution for the player (not the courtesy runner) is a projected substitution, which is illegal.

[beerguy55]

I will say this again, this is so much more complicated than it needs to be - we have turned a time saver suggestion (that does not save time) into a way for coaches to convince people that they're getting more players into the lineup...and to strategically create a special teams, by putting jackrabbits who can't hit on the bench, solely to run for F1/F2.

First - drop the pitcher courtesy runner nonsense, they don't have pads to put on - this is not a time saver move.  If they're on the bases for the third out, have someone on the bench bring them their glove/hat and collect their helmet/stuff.  (bench players should be doing this for all baserunners when an inning ends anyway)

Second - with two outs only, the batter furthest down the lineup from the current batter, who is not on base, takes F2's spot on the bases. This ensures the courtesy runner is never on base for his next at bat. That could be:

- someone who batted after F2 reached base to make the second out

- someone who made the second out before F2 reached base

- another runner who made the second out while F2 was on base

- someone who has scored, including the guy who scored on F2's hit with two outs

- and once in a blue moon, someone who made the first out

And it cannot be someone not in the current batting lineup.  It cannot be the guy who is Defense Only.  These prevent the coach from dedicating a speedy player for courtesy runner duty...fate, to some degree, determines who the courtesy runner is in any given inning...and they don't get to swap out the slow F2 with less than two out. The coach can opt to forego said runner.

This takes five seconds to make the swap, and it's up to the defense to determine (and appeal) if the offense is putting the incorrect runner on base (or if they care).

And it just works...at the most informal of rec leagues and exhibition games, to the National Gold Medal final game.  Ump doesn't worry about a damned thing (except to grant time to allow the swap) unless the defense says something...and most umps will go hundreds of games without seeing that happen.

[The Man in Blue]

On 3/25/2024 at 8:57 AM, noumpere said:

Talked to an IL umpire (Chicago area).  CR is still being used.

 

Is TMIB not using it?  (Or, maybe you don't do HS -- I forget.)

 

Don't know where the disconnect with Sam came from, but I'd ask a rules interpreter (a specific committee within IL for each sport; not just your association rules guy) and I'd be specific:  These are the xx items listed on the rules book.  Which does IL use?

 

Sorry for not getting back to this sooner . . . after telling me, "The ONLY adoption is the mercy run rule . . . " Sam did confirm that IHSA does use courtesy runners.  🙄

No explanation about what rules are adopted and which ones aren't, though.

(Yes, I do call HS baseball.  Yes, I have allowed courtesy runners, but I made that statement based on what I had just been told.  Thought maybe I had been screwing it up.)

[SeeingEyeDog]

13 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

...and to strategically create a special teams, by putting jackrabbits who can't hit on the bench, solely to run for F1/F2.

 

 

This! A lot of the larger schools I work will think nothing of having 30 players dressed and in the lineup. I've always thought NFHS should restrict the game day lineups to somewhere around 22. You want to have 100 players at practice or whatever...fine. Let's be reasonable here on game day.

Secondly, I've always wondered with there being no restriction on the size of the lineup, do baseball coaches ever knock on the door of the track coach's office and try to recruit their 2 best sprinters? Obviously, if someone has never played baseball before, they would have a great deal to learn about baserunning but, if I've thought of it...I'm sure some coach somewhere has done it.

~Dawg

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

This! A lot of the larger schools I work will think nothing of having 30 players dressed and in the lineup. I've always thought NFHS should restrict the game day lineups to somewhere around 22. You want to have 100 players at practice or whatever...fine. Let's be reasonable here on game day.

Secondly, I've always wondered with there being no restriction on the size of the lineup, do baseball coaches ever knock on the door of the track coach's office and try to recruit their 2 best sprinters? Obviously, if someone has never played baseball before, they would have a great deal to learn about baserunning but, if I've thought of it...I'm sure some coach somewhere has done it.

~Dawg

It's a motivational thing and when done well very impressive. 3 fungo coaches, 3 catchers and 30 guys on the field knowing where to throw. A youtube video might exist. Regarding the PRs or CRs, seen a bunch of track guys subbed. Seen a bunch of track guys picked off doing stupid baserunning tricks.

[johnnyg08]

On 3/25/2024 at 11:03 PM, Jimurray said:

I had a wild occurrence quite a few years ago posted on UE. Somewhere in the thread was a confirmation that FED only cared about defensive subs being announced before they were on defence. But I don't recall a definition of projected subs in FED and if a coach wanted to give you a change to all 9 lineups while you were counting 5 pitches he could do it. You, of course would have left your three balls in the batters box while you took the subs. IN NCAA and OBR the sub is in when the coach reports it. By rule in FED the sub is in when the umpire announces it and he can announce it at the time it is told to him. As the caseplay shows you can't sub for a player who has not been in the game yet.

You can take the subs. The only real reason to deny a projected sub is for the reason the OP states. It's practical to take them at that time...but if anything changes in between, allow the change. 

[johnnyg08]

7 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

This! A lot of the larger schools I work will think nothing of having 30 players dressed and in the lineup. I've always thought NFHS should restrict the game day lineups to somewhere around 22. You want to have 100 players at practice or whatever...fine. Let's be reasonable here on game day.

Secondly, I've always wondered with there being no restriction on the size of the lineup, do baseball coaches ever knock on the door of the track coach's office and try to recruit their 2 best sprinters? Obviously, if someone has never played baseball before, they would have a great deal to learn about baserunning but, if I've thought of it...I'm sure some coach somewhere has done it.

~Dawg

I grew up with a kid who didn't even have a glove for the baseball team. He was a courtesy runner. He knew it & was comfortable with it.

[Velho]

10 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I grew up with a kid who didn't even have a glove for the baseball team. He was a courtesy runner. He knew it & was comfortable with it.

Such a sweet boy

[Richvee]

Herb Washington. 

[The Man in Blue]

15 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

You can take the subs. The only real reason to deny a projected sub is for the reason the OP states. It's practical to take them at that time...but if anything changes in between, allow the change. 

 

Or because, you know . . . it's explicitly illegal?  Practical, sure.