Runner on 3B, B position

[RBIbaseball]

edit: talking 2-man NFHS

Is working from the B position with a runner on 3B and 2 outs a preference thing, or the standard?

 

In what other scenarios do you work from B with a runner on 3B, and what are the exceptions (ie 1 run game, and they are holding R3 late in the game, etc.) ?

[noumpere]

It's preferred only by this who can't move well enough to get over closer to first and who don't understand angle over distance.

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

It's preferred only by this who can't move well enough to get over closer to first and who don't understand angle over distance.

3 mechanics systems I know of don't even give a choice. "C" is specified no matter how many outs.

[RBIbaseball]

29 minutes ago, noumpere said:

It's preferred only by this who can't move well enough to get over closer to first and who don't understand angle over distance.

 

23 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

3 mechanics systems I know of don't even give a choice. "C" is specified no matter how many outs.

Thanks. I have been told this in the past that B is the "right" place to B (no pun intended).

If it wasn't obvious, I was speaking of 2-man system NFHS / FED

The only explanation I've been given is that with 2 outs and a runner on 3B, the defense most likely isn't going to make a play on that runner, therefore it's more beneficial to be in the B position so you're in better position for plays at 1B and watching the B/R (who will more than likely be the one having a play made on him).

That explanation made sense to me, so I've went with it for a couple years, but as I'm learning more on the job I question the validity and when it makes sense / doesn't make sense.

An exception (as I learned it) would be in a tight game where the defense is focusing on holding the runner on 3B, then you want to stay there where you are closer to that potential play.

 

So far it seems like I was taught something someone made up and ran with, so perhaps I should delete this one from my memory core.

[SH0102]

I was originally taught that this was an “advanced mechanic” based on; as you said, the most likely play.  While it is true that the vast majority of the time any play will be on the BR and not R3, I also quickly learned that I would rather be closer to the tag play than the “force play” (yes I know).

Ie, once you get burned with a back pick and you’re way over in B, you’ll quickly go back to C and take the play at first from a further distance .

[noumpere]

4 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

The only explanation I've been given is that with 2 outs and a runner on 3B, the defense most likely isn't going to make a play on that runner, therefore it's more beneficial to be in the B position so you're in better position for plays

 

1) FED rules and mechanics are often geared toward the lowest-comm0n-denominator umpire.

2) Unless you are a big dog in your area, you should work the prescribed mechanics, even if all of us agree there are better alternatives.

[RBIbaseball]

1 hour ago, SH0102 said:

I was originally taught that this was an “advanced mechanic” based on; as you said, the most likely play.  While it is true that the vast majority of the time any play will be on the BR and not R3, I also quickly learned that I would rather be closer to the tag play than the “force play” (yes I know).

Ie, once you get burned with a back pick and you’re way over in B, you’ll quickly go back to C and take the play at first from a further distance .

This is exactly the scenario and reasoning as to why I posted.

Although this back pick hasn't happened to me in this B vs C scenario ... It has happened to me in other circumstances and is something I thought about and would prefer to avoid

[Tborze]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

3 mechanics systems I know of don't even give a choice. "C" is specified no matter how many outs.

“D” 

[The Man in Blue]

9 hours ago, SH0102 said:

I was originally taught that this was an “advanced mechanic” based on; as you said, the most likely play.  While it is true that the vast majority of the time any play will be on the BR and not R3, I also quickly learned that I would rather be closer to the tag play than the “force play” (yes I know).

Ie, once you get burned with a back pick and you’re way over in B, you’ll quickly go back to C and take the play at first from a further distance .

Winner.

I don't care how close you are, it is easier to see a thrown ball beating a runner from a distance than a tag down on the ground in a cloud of dust at a distance.  Odds be damned.

[Jimurray]

7 hours ago, Tborze said:

“D” 

sound of something going over my head

[Jimurray]

9 hours ago, noumpere said:

 

2) Unless you are a big dog in your area, you should work the prescribed mechanics, even if all of us agree there are better alternatives.

2) Unless you are a big dog in your area, you should work the not standard mechanics, unless the umpire shortage has them begging. Then you can tell the big dog to take a hike and tell them to do all the post season by themselves.

 

(I seem to be in a foul mood this evening)

[MadMax]

23 hours ago, SH0102 said:

I was originally taught that this was an “advanced mechanic” based on; as you said, the most likely play.  While it is true that the vast majority of the time any play will be on the BR and not R3, I also quickly learned that I would rather be closer to the tag play than the “force play” (yes I know).

Here’s the thing, SH0 (and everyone else reading this thread). I know you/we are right in using the proper position on any Outs with R3 only – C. 

I’ve attended MLBU Day Camps. 
I’ve moved (from Wisconsin) to Arizona, and attended umpire development sessions here.  
I’ve worked alongside multiple disciplines (levels) of umpires. 
I’ve worked in multiple states and regions, in a wide variety of leagues and events. 
I’ve worked dozens-to-hundreds of games in all systems beyond solo – 2-, 3-, 4-, and 6-. I’ve become expert-level at all roles/positions in them (U2 is still the most challenging & dynamic, and why I love it so). 
In preparation for those leagues and events, I’ve attended camps, clinics, and training sessions; some, wherein “special” mechanics / rotations are discussed (the one we’re talking about hasn’t been, FYI). 
I’ve attended HWUS. 
I work alongside Professional (Big P) Umpires. I work alongside, and am considered a professional umpire (those who make umpiring / officiating a profession, and do extensive college ball). 

In none of those places is the advisement or directive of “you shall… “ or “you should…  “ move to B with R3 only and 2 Outs. 

Yes, I’ve witnessed that position being used. The user is always one of two types – a “newer” (I can’t say younger, per se, but it usually is) impressionable umpire, and an “older”, “crustier”, more “self-authoritative”, more stubborn umpire, who not only is physically deficient on moving about the ballfield (that can certainly be forgiven), but also goes to great effort to justify why he does it, and impress on others – especially “newer” umpires – that this is the way it should be done!!!  
 

These guys frequently find friends and allies in local associations. 

My advice to you ( @RBIbaseball, others… )? Screw “them”, and do it right. Position yourself in C so that you can be present and observe a potential play upon R3, and when you have a batted ball, read where it’s going, and get your ass outta your stance and across the centerline towards 1B. 

Show it to ‘em, prove it to ‘em. 

When I move back to Wisconsin, I know this is one of “feral” mechanics (it’s not advanced; “advanced” implies refinement. This is feral. It’s been improvised, makeshift, ad-hoc, and allowed to fester and rot in little local associations across the amateur baseball landscape) I’m likely going to encounter and have to remove to bring Wisconsin (back) up to modern times. 

R2 only? C. 
R2-R3? C. 
R3 only? C. 
R1-2-3? C. 

Number of Outs is inconsequential. 

This is the way. 

[Thunderheads]

18 minutes ago, MadMax said:

My advice to you ( @RBIbaseball, others… )? Screw “them”, and do it right. Position yourself in C so that you can be present and observe a potential play upon R3, and when you have a batted ball, read where it’s going, and get your ass outta your stance and across the centerline towards 1B. 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

[MadMax]

On 3/20/2024 at 7:33 AM, RBIbaseball said:

In what other scenarios do you work from B with a runner on 3B,

When you have a Runner on 1st base, too. 

In 2-man, when you have R1-R3, you’re in B.  

• A steal attempt by R1 is the likeliest play. 
• With < 2 outs, a ground ball to any infielder is most likely going to 2B first so as to attempt a DP. Of course, if it’s hit to F5, you have to pause and read if he’s going to attempt a tag of R3, and barring that, he’ll throw to 1B for an out there. Or, with 2 outs, he’ll go right to 1B. 
• Pickoff throws from F1 will more likely go to 1B. More “natural” throw. 
• U must be aware of backpicks to 3B. Must be anticipating this, but U cannot abandon B too soon, or get too deep towards B-deep. 

[The Man in Blue]

Advanced mechanic - noun

1) An auto repair technician with years of expertise and experience

2) A baseball term for “I don’t want to do it, but I’ll convince everyone my lazy workaround is something special that only I - and high level umpires - do.

[RBIbaseball]

Sir, yes sir!

[Richvee]

On 3/21/2024 at 11:44 AM, MadMax said:

, but it usually is) impressionable umpire, and an “older”, “crustier”, more “self-authoritative”, more stubborn umpire, who not only is physically deficient on moving about the ballfield (that can certainly be forgiven), but also goes to great effort to justify why he does it, and impress on others – especially “newer” umpires – that this is the way it should be done!!!

He’ll also more than likely own one faded, wrinkled navy shirt and proudly tell you he hasn’t spent money on gear or uniform in years. 

[The Man in Blue]

That is the advanced uniform, @Richvee.

[johnnyg08]

I think there are a couple of approaches.

Back picks at 3B are extremely rare in my neck of the woods. 

A half swing appeal is much more likely and from B, we're much more credible. 

So...if you hedge, you're in a better spot for more plays working B. 

That being said, if your boss wants you in C, then you'd better be in C. 

[Vegas_Ump]

Not HFHS, but the conundrum is the same!

I grew up on Little League 60' diamond.  With R3 (or any other combinations with R3), the field ump was to be in C.  Little League has the rule about leaving a base early, so the umpire was supposed to be on top of the lead runner for that potential violation.  Yet, at that level of play, the existential defensive play was likely to be at first!  For most situations, being in B would be a lot better because you could cover the action at second and third easy and be in a better position to make the call at first.  I think that's where that philosophy originates.

So I think that beginners should try the book procedure then see how it works out as your experience grows.

JMO.

Mike

Las Vegas

[blue23ll]

On 3/21/2024 at 8:44 AM, MadMax said:

Here’s the thing, SH0 (and everyone else reading this thread). I know you/we are right in using the proper position on any Outs with R3 only – C. 

I’ve attended MLBU Day Camps. 
I’ve moved (from Wisconsin) to Arizona, and attended umpire development sessions here.  
I’ve worked alongside multiple disciplines (levels) of umpires. 
I’ve worked in multiple states and regions, in a wide variety of leagues and events. 
I’ve worked dozens-to-hundreds of games in all systems beyond solo – 2-, 3-, 4-, and 6-. I’ve become expert-level at all roles/positions in them (U2 is still the most challenging & dynamic, and why I love it so). 
In preparation for those leagues and events, I’ve attended camps, clinics, and training sessions; some, wherein “special” mechanics / rotations are discussed (the one we’re talking about hasn’t been, FYI). 
I’ve attended HWUS. 
I work alongside Professional (Big P) Umpires. I work alongside, and am considered a professional umpire (those who make umpiring / officiating a profession, and do extensive college ball). 

In none of those places is the advisement or directive of “you shall… “ or “you should…  “ move to B with R3 only and 2 Outs. 

Yes, I’ve witnessed that position being used. The user is always one of two types – a “newer” (I can’t say younger, per se, but it usually is) impressionable umpire, and an “older”, “crustier”, more “self-authoritative”, more stubborn umpire, who not only is physically deficient on moving about the ballfield (that can certainly be forgiven), but also goes to great effort to justify why he does it, and impress on others – especially “newer” umpires – that this is the way it should be done!!!  
 

These guys frequently find friends and allies in local associations. 

My advice to you ( @RBIbaseball, others… )? Screw “them”, and do it right. Position yourself in C so that you can be present and observe a potential play upon R3, and when you have a batted ball, read where it’s going, and get your ass outta your stance and across the centerline towards 1B. 

Show it to ‘em, prove it to ‘em. 

When I move back to Wisconsin, I know this is one of “feral” mechanics (it’s not advanced; “advanced” implies refinement. This is feral. It’s been improvised, makeshift, ad-hoc, and allowed to fester and rot in little local associations across the amateur baseball landscape) I’m likely going to encounter and have to remove to bring Wisconsin (back) up to modern times. 

R2 only? C. 
R2-R3? C. 
R3 only? C. 
R1-2-3? C. 

Number of Outs is inconsequential. 

This is the way. 

Tell us what you REALLY feel!!

[concertman1971]

On 3/21/2024 at 8:44 AM, MadMax said:

I know this is one of “feral” mechanics

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHH 

This is killing me