Walkoff

[Bill Nale]

No outs, bottom of last inning with tied score.  Runners on 1st and 2nd.  Batter hits ball to fence.  R2 scores but misses 3rd base.  R1 sees this and also scores.  On appeal (R2 out) does R1 scoring still count or is it a dead ball when R2 scored the winning (walkoff) run and R1 is sent back to 3rd base?
Similar question if R1 did not try to score and was tagged out after R2 crossed plate (but later out on appeal).  Does out count on R1?

[maven]

First, the missed base must be legally appealed prior to the umpires leaving the field. 

Assuming that happened, R2 is out, for the first out of the inning. The rest of the play stands, including R1's score. In the original scenario, the game is over.

I have never heard of a code that requires returning runners, so under no circumstances would R1 be required to return following a successful missed base appeal.

Had R2's out been the 3rd out of the inning, R1's run would be nullified, and the game would go to extra innings.

In the variant scenario, where R1 is put out prior to the appeal, that out also would stand. The inning would resume with 2 outs and the BR wherever he got to (1B or 2B, probably).

[Senor Azul]

The original scenario is similar to a case play found in OBR rule 5.08 Comment:

APPROVED RULING:  Following runners are not affected by an act of a preceding runner unless two are out.

EXAMPLE:  One out, R2, R1, and batter hits home run inside the park. R2 fails to touch third on his way to the plate. R1 and batter score. The defense holds the ball on third, appeals to umpire, and R2 is out. R1's and batter's runs count.

[Richvee]

What's interesting about this OP is R2 is the game winning run. The game ends at that point. The chances of R1 being that aware, and continuing to run are slim, and I'm not sure it's even a live ball at that point. Chances are both runners are going to join the dogpile that follows R2 "scoring". We would absolutely honor an appeal of the miss of 3B by R2, but would we allow further outs for abandonment of the batter runner and R1? That's a pretty dirty end of the sick. Interesting to say the least. I doubt I can find any kind of interp for this, but I think you just have to umpire here...The game "ended" when R2 scored. No further live play is possible. BR and R1 can't score, can't be tagged out, can't be accused of abandonment.   After successful appeal,  R1 to 3B, BR to 1B, one out.  

[ErichKeane]

4 hours ago, Richvee said:

What's interesting about this OP is R2 is the game winning run. The game ends at that point. The chances of R1 being that aware, and continuing to run are slim, and I'm not sure it's even a live ball at that point. Chances are both runners are going to join the dogpile that follows R2 "scoring". We would absolutely honor an appeal of the miss of 3B by R2, but would we allow further outs for abandonment of the batter runner and R1? That's a pretty dirty end of the sick. Interesting to say the least. I doubt I can find any kind of interp for this, but I think you just have to umpire here...The game "ended" when R2 scored. No further live play is possible. BR and R1 can't score, can't be tagged out, can't be accused of abandonment.   After successful appeal,  R1 to 3B, BR to 1B, one out.  

Nothing in 5-1 lists "the winning run scored" as a dead ball.  That plus the "until the umpires leave the field" tells me that the ball is probably considered 'live' until the umpires leave the field, so as to allow live-ball appeals. 

If you said, "well, dead ball as soon as the run scores", there would be no reason to tag up on a fly ball (in OBR, where no dead ball appeals) as the winning runner.  Just make it to home-plate before they can appeal, and the 'dead ball' with no further play to put it in play for, and the game is over.

[MadMax]

55 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

Just make it to home-plate before they can appeal, and the 'dead ball' with no further play to put it in play for, and the game is over.

That’s not entirely true. In all 3 major rule sets, the act of hitting the ball over the fence – whether in flight for a home run, or on the bounce for a ground rule double – makes the ball dead. So a walkoff HR or a GR2B w/ R2 or R3 ends the ballgame, but absolutely can be appealed. In NFHS, of course, dead ball appeals are valid. In NCAA and OBR, if the defense indicates they want to appeal, they have to have their required 8 players in fair territory (the 9th, the F2, in his position in foul territory), and the PU will supply a baseball to F1, who must engage and be ready to pitch. The offense does not have to send a (next) batter to the box, and the PU can signal the ball Live for the purposes of conducting that appeal. 

[Bill Nale]

OP here.  I am more and more thinking it is a dead ball.  Little League green book 4.10b   "....play shall continue until .......(2) the home team scores the winning run in an uncompleted inning".  Does this make it a dead ball?.

If it is a live ball, the defense can then go tag the celebrating players who were on base for additional outs before the appeal.

So I think the "game is over" on the winning run pending any appeal.

[MadMax]

3 minutes ago, Bill Nale said:

I am more and more thinking it is a dead ball.

Why would it be? The "end of the game" is not listed under events that make the ball Dead. So what makes the ball dead? Did it go out of play? Was there a call of "Time" by an umpire, and base awards made? Was the ball lodged? 

So provided that the ball stayed (Live) within the park, and was retrieved from the fence, then it is still Live; the defense may take the ball and conduct appeals, provided that an umpire is still on the field. An appeal can be conducted either by tagging the base which is being appealed as missed (& in possession of the ball), or tagging the Runner being appealed upon with the ball. Conjunctively, that umpire should inquire, "What are you appealing?" and the response can be something like, "He missed __ base!". Then, the umpire judges accordingly. 

The ball's not truly dead until the "window" for potential appeals "closes"... and that happens when all defensive infielders have departed the field, and no umpires remain on the field.* 

 

*- This is why umpires should shall not linger around in handshake lines!!!! 

[Senor Azul]

Close Call Sports analyzed an MLB play about a continuous action play that got a third and a fourth out--the question was when does a half-inning end? The article was written in July 2018 and the title is:

False Fourth Out- Ball Stays Alive After Third Out 

One of the conclusions was, "A half-inning cannot categorically end until the potential for a fourth out or similar appeal has ended." The article contains two links to other articles about inning-ending plays. Perhaps some of the analysis there can help us understand more about game-ending procedures?

 

 

[Vegas_Ump]

On 2/21/2024 at 12:42 PM, Richvee said:

What's interesting about this OP is R2 is the game winning run. The game ends at that point. The chances of R1 being that aware, and continuing to run are slim, and I'm not sure it's even a live ball at that point. Chances are both runners are going to join the dogpile that follows R2 "scoring". We would absolutely honor an appeal of the miss of 3B by R2, but would we allow further outs for abandonment of the batter runner and R1? That's a pretty dirty end of the sick. Interesting to say the least. I doubt I can find any kind of interp for this, but I think you just have to umpire here...The game "ended" when R2 scored. No further live play is possible. BR and R1 can't score, can't be tagged out, can't be accused of abandonment.   After successful appeal,  R1 to 3B, BR to 1B, one out.  

Rich:  I respectfully disagree.

The game does not officially "end" until the umpires leave the field.  This allows for appeals and protests to be lodged.  Once the umpires do leave the field, the game is official and no protests (over playing rules) can be entertained.

The ball remains "live" until the defense leaves the field.  (Different books define what "leaving the field means".)  So appeals are possible.

To wit:  if R1 is smart enough to come around and touch the plate legally, his run will count only if R2's "score" is nullified by appeal--not 3rd out.  Think of it this way:  what if this play happened in any other inning than the last?  You would certainly entertain the appeal, and the point at which the defense "left the field" would determine when the ball is no longer live.

So I have R1's score as the winning run provided R2 was successfully retired on appeal.

JMO.

Mike

Las Vegas

[BLWizzRanger]

So... if R2 misses the 3B and scores. R1 leaves 2B to join the celebration. R2 is out on appeal for the 1st out ( or 2nd, doesn't matter). Do you have R1 out for abandonment? He doesnt know R2 missed the base and it wasnt the umps fault for them leaving the bases, therefore, in getting the call right, technically, the umps actions did not cause him to be in peril. What do you got?

Sent from my SM-F721U1 using Tapatalk

[BigBlue4u]

On 2/21/2024 at 6:12 PM, MadMax said:

In NCAA and OBR, if the defense indicates they want to appeal, they have to have their required 8 players in fair territory (the 9th, the F2, in his position in foul territory)

I believe the NCAA rule states all infielders and the pitcher. (8-6-3-b)

[Richvee]

9 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Rich:  I respectfully disagree.

The game does not officially "end" until the umpires leave the field.  This allows for appeals and protests to be lodged.  Once the umpires do leave the field, the game is official and no protests (over playing rules) can be entertained.

The ball remains "live" until the defense leaves the field.  (Different books define what "leaving the field means".)  So appeals are possible.

To wit:  if R1 is smart enough to come around and touch the plate legally, his run will count only if R2's "score" is nullified by appeal--not 3rd out.  Think of it this way:  what if this play happened in any other inning than the last?  You would certainly entertain the appeal, and the point at which the defense "left the field" would determine when the ball is no longer live.

So I have R1's score as the winning run provided R2 was successfully retired on appeal.

JMO.

Mike

Las Vegas

I like the logic and I’m good with allowing the smart R1’s run to count. But the chances of this are rare. What do we do in the more likely scenario @BLWizzRanger proposes? if R2 misses third, “scores” , R1 and BR touch 2nd and 1st respectively, and join the dog pile. And then defense appeals. 
Is it abandonment by both and the inning is over? Or do we go with R1 R2 one out?  I think someone’s getting ejected either way. I’d love a real interp on this. As it’s not a third world play. 

[The Man in Blue]

Didn't we have something similar to [the third world variants we are devising] that last year when the catcher put the ball in his back pocket and went to celebrate?

As for the OP, I am going to take a rare track and disagree with @MadMax.  The game is over, so the ball can be neither live nor dead (Schrödinger's ball again!) as there is no game.  One must have a game to have a live or dead ball.  The game is over by rule.  The umpire would need to reset and resume the game to continue, therefor any runners would have to be placed back at their position at the time the game ended.  (I don't think I like it . . . but that seems to be what it should be.)  The runners should only be allowed to complete their obligation if the runs are scoring on a dead ball (out of the park HR, GR double) AND are forced.

OBR 7.01(g)(3) 

 

and 7.01 (g)(4)

 

 

 

5.08(b) also gives us a look into an awkward game-ending situation, but it specifically refers ONLY to runners who are forced.

 

[BLWizzRanger]

21 hours ago, Richvee said:

I like the logic and I’m good with allowing the smart R1’s run to count. But the chances of this are rare. What do we do in the more likely scenario @BLWizzRanger proposes? if R2 misses third, “scores” , R1 and BR touch 2nd and 1st respectively, and join the dog pile. And then defense appeals. 
Is it abandonment by both and the inning is over? Or do we go with R1 R2 one out?  I think someone’s getting ejected either way. I’d love a real interp on this. As it’s not a third world play. 

I asked the question in a camp today.  The answer I got is in the vein of the other answers.  The game is considered over, therefore, the ball is dead after the 'winning' run scored.  Of course, to appeal in either NFHS or NCAA, infielders can't have left the infield and the umps can't have left the field either.  But, in NFHS, a dead ball appeal could be done and R1 would have just been put back on the base.  In NCAA, a live ball appeal must be done, therefore, before putting the ball back into play, return R1 back to the base before putting the ball back into play.

[Jimurray]

42 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I asked the question in a camp today.  The answer I got is in the vein of the other answers.  The game is considered over, therefore, the ball is dead after the 'winning' run scored.  Of course, to appeal in either NFHS or NCAA, infielders can't have left the infield and the umps can't have left the field either.  But, in NFHS, a dead ball appeal could be done and R1 would have just been put back on the base.  In NCAA, a live ball appeal must be done, therefore, before putting the ball back into play, return R1 back to the base before putting the ball back into play.

When is the the winning run "scored"? Bases full, 1 out, DP grounder, winning run can cross HP but a live ball can put R1 and BR out. MLB bases loaded, I think 1 out, base hit to the fence, winning runs scores and runners abandon or don't touch forced base. Infielder asks for the ball from the outfielder and the CF throws it to him where he puts out the abandoned R1 at 2B and I think they threw to 3B but memory is hazy. Umps used the non batted ball winning run explanation that only the BR and R3 needed to advance. Luckily that ruling was moot as a security guard had thrown the ball to the CF and took everyone off the hook. 

[The Man in Blue]

Well, if it is a true double-play (force play) for the third out, the rules specifically state the run does not score.

If it is some third-world convolution of appeals, then you have a time play and the winning run would score.

I'm not following your full sequence of events, @Jimurray.

 

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Well, if it is a true double-play (force play) for the third out, the rules specifically state the run does not score.

If it is some third-world convolution of appeals, then you have a time play and the winning run would score.

I'm not following your full sequence of events, @Jimurray.

 

In the first instance the runner crossed HP. Did it become the winning run and make the ball dead so no DP? In the second instance a possible winning run crossed HP with outs possible that could negate a score and in the actual MLB play it would have been a goatrope if the security guard had not picked up the ball. I don't think that what appears as a winning run makes the ball dead and I would allow a live ball appeal without going thru the rigmarole of making the ball live.

[Senor Azul]

The MLB game Mr. Jimurray referred to took place in August 2015. The Reds lost to the Diamondbacks on a base hit to the outfield wall. The bases were loaded and R3 scored easily for what should have been the game winning run. But there were several complicating factors.

It seems that R1 and R2 both abandoned efforts to touch their advance base. I think at least one of the umpires had started to leave the field so may not have seen the abandonment. The Reds infielders remained on the field and saw the base running errors and one of them started to go get the game ball which was at the base of the wall.

Unfortunately for Cincinnati, a security guard (or maybe a grounds crewman) picked up the game ball and threw it to the Reds player. Well the Reds proceeded to tag all the bases but got none of the appeals granted. Later umpire Larry Vanover issued an explanation that was based on the wrong rule. 

We discussed the play in a thread that is in the Professional forum. And Close Call Sports analyzed the play and the article title was something like Merkel Revisited.

 

[The Man in Blue]

Thank you for the clarification, @Senor Azul.

Edit: searched CCS and here is what they have:

https://www.closecallsports.com/2015/08/case-play-2015-07-merkle-revisited.html

https://www.closecallsports.com/2018/11/case-play-2018-9-walk-off-appeal-madness.html

In the Merkle Revisited case (the first link), the rule interpretation at that time was that only the BR and the runner scoring had to touch.  Vanover provided the correct explanation.

@Jimurray, the way I read your presentation of the play, it sounded to me as if the out at 2B was a force (not an abandonment and not an appeal).  So, yes, you would have that out since the runner is still obligated to touch 2B.  The way you presented it, then there was following action at 3B.  Following the out at 2B, a play at 3B would no longer be a force.  If you no longer have a force at 3B, you are not going to have a very good case for abandonment or a force out, as the runner is not obligated to run the bases once the winning run has scored.  UNLESS you want to be that guy and call the abandonment before the winning run scores (abandonment is out 2; the force at 2B becomes out 3 and no run scores).

Abandonment is not an appeal play (OBR 5.09(b)(1) and (2) Comment).  So, for it to be called, YOU have to make that call at the time.

If I misread your presentation, just treat the above as food for thought.  😁

I should look all this up for NFHS to see if it is the same.

 

[Jimurray]

13 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Thank you for the clarification, @Senor Azul.

Edit: searched CCS and here is what they have:

https://www.closecallsports.com/2015/08/case-play-2015-07-merkle-revisited.html

https://www.closecallsports.com/2018/11/case-play-2018-9-walk-off-appeal-madness.html

In the Merkle Revisited case (the first link), the rule interpretation at that time was that only the BR and the runner scoring had to touch.  Vanover provided the correct explanation.

@Jimurray, the way I read your presentation of the play, it sounded to me as if the out at 2B was a force (not an abandonment and not an appeal).  So, yes, you would have that out since the runner is still obligated to touch 2B.  The way you presented it, then there was following action at 3B.  Following the out at 2B, a play at 3B would no longer be a force.  If you no longer have a force at 3B, you are not going to have a very good case for abandonment or a force out, as the runner is not obligated to run the bases once the winning run has scored.  UNLESS you want to be that guy and call the abandonment before the winning run scores (abandonment is out 2; the force at 2B becomes out 3 and no run scores).

Abandonment is not an appeal play (OBR 5.09(b)(1) and (2) Comment).  So, for it to be called, YOU have to make that call at the time.

If I misread your presentation, just treat the above as food for thought.  😁

I should look all this up for NFHS to see if it is the same.

 

There were a lot of wrinkles to that play. I think back then the Wendstedt interp had forces existing at time of miss but we now know that’s changed. That play and my other example are questioning what causes a winning run to be “scored” and end the game.