Umpiresrock74 Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 19 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said: This comes to mind. I actually did that with my chest protector. LOL. Had a kid throw 70mph at me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umpiresrock74 Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 23 hours ago, boyinr said: This likely falls into the category of "don't ask the question if you won't like the answer" Not sure that I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Short Umpire Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 30 minutes ago, Umpiresrock74 said: Not sure that I understand. I think he’s saying that a lot of companies don’t want their CPs tested because they know the results won’t be pretty. There isn’t any incentive for producers to do testing cause there are no requirements for it. The only reason they have catchers equipment tested is because it’s required by rule so if they don’t test they can’t sell to their market. Since there is no governing body that requires testing for umpire equipment it is a lose-lose for companies to do it. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umpiresrock74 Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 36 minutes ago, The Short Umpire said: I think he’s saying that a lot of companies don’t want their CPs tested because they know the results won’t be pretty. There isn’t any incentive for producers to do testing cause there are no requirements for it. The only reason they have catchers equipment tested is because it’s required by rule so if they don’t test they can’t sell to their market. Since there is no governing body that requires testing for umpire equipment it is a lose-lose for companies to do it. Well then make better stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Short Umpire Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 33 minutes ago, Umpiresrock74 said: Well then make better stuff. Large corporations have no motivation other than making more money. Why spend money on something that you don’t have to. Allstar and force3 are the only company that has discussed their own in-house testing. Force 3 really only showed testing of the mask however. Allstar gave a pretty extensive behind the scenes look at testing the Cobalt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyinr Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 1 hour ago, The Short Umpire said: I think he’s saying that a lot of companies don’t want their CPs tested because they know the results won’t be pretty. There isn’t any incentive for producers to do testing cause there are no requirements for it. The only reason they have catchers equipment tested is because it’s required by rule so if they don’t test they can’t sell to their market. Since there is no governing body that requires testing for umpire equipment it is a lose-lose for companies to do it. Exactly that. A quick search shows that there are off the shelf and custom force pads that would take a measurement and convert it to force reading. As far as the testing goes, a lot of us recall the awful results of the first F3 demo with Jim Evens in 2015. How did that work? I would have posted the video but its gone.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concertman1971 Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 It aint scientific, but here is an unpaid video of how well ThighPro works..... https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2hzoshrefs/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekGDS Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 I'd like to point out that there's a significant cost distinction between independently conducting tests for standards such as NOCSAE ND200 (Commotio Cordis) and completing the entire certification process. The two price points don't even come close to one another. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umpiresrock74 Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 How much would you guys idealy pay for replacement protective padding, if it was some of the best out there? Like top line military grade padding. Something similar to team wendy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Short Umpire Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 30 minutes ago, Umpiresrock74 said: How much would you guys idealy pay for replacement protective padding, if it was some of the best out there? Like top line military grade padding. Something similar to team wendy. Here’s the mistake you’re making. You’ve asked this question on about 50 different threads. I understand that you’re trying to get a feel for market willingness to pay but if that’s your main consideration then you’re guaranteed to fail. In construction if I bid a job based on what I think a client will pay then I will be done in a matter of months. I bid jobs based on my total cost of goods (this includes all materials, the entire cost of labor to complete the job and overhead, meaning what’s the cost to keep the lights on in my shop while I work on this project. It also includes any fuel cost back and forth to the job.) After considering my entire cost of goods I add a percentage to that number to account for my profit. That’s the number I give to my client. If they don’t want to pay what it’s gonna take for me to make money then I don’t want the job cause it’s gonna be a nightmare trying to do a quality job under a stranglehold. So frankly it doesn’t matter what people say they're willing to pay for something. you need to just set a price that will make you money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umpiresrock74 Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 3 minutes ago, The Short Umpire said: Here’s the mistake you’re making. You’ve asked this question on about 50 different threads. I understand that you’re trying to get a feel for market willingness to pay but if that’s your main consideration then you’re guaranteed to fail. In construction if I bid a job based on what I think a client will pay then I will be done in a matter of months. I bid jobs based on my total cost of goods (this includes all materials, the entire cost of labor to complete the job and overhead, meaning what’s the cost to keep the lights on in my shop while I work on this project. It also includes any fuel cost back and forth to the job.) After considering my entire cost of goods I add a percentage to that number to account for my profit. That’s the number I give to my client. If they don’t want to pay what it’s gonna take for me to make money then I don’t want the job cause it’s gonna be a nightmare trying to do a quality job under a stranglehold. So frankly it doesn’t matter what people say they're willing to pay for something. you need to just set a price that will make you money. Okay. And let the people who really want the product pay for it. Becuase the ones who do want it, will pay for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Short Umpire Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 47 minutes ago, Umpiresrock74 said: Okay. And let the people who really want the product pay for it. Becuase the ones who do want it, will pay for it. Exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfe_man Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 2 hours ago, Umpiresrock74 said: Okay. And let the people who really want the product pay for it. Becuase the ones who do want it, will pay for it. And be aware that it takes a lot of time to get a new product off of the ground. Most umpires are not wealthy and will not buy a new piece of gear that's unproven - unless a friend/peer/contact, etc. has personally recommended it to them. I suppose they might splurge if it was endorsed by MLB guys too (see Wilson and MLB logo for example). Umpires are a notoriously hard market to influence and make money in. How many new shoe companies are jumping in to try and take over for Reebok and Nike who don't make plate shoes anymore? None. Even NB has slowed it way down which is why so many are turning to Mizuno in hopes that they'll fill the need that's been created. Why? Because umpires are not paid a lot of money. Some (LL) even work as volunteers. This means if they buy anything, it comes straight out of their own wallet and they're losing money on their hobby... which is why navy is still around for HS ball. Umpires are cheap and will wear a shirt until it's faded purple and worn out. I've seen hats that have so many sweat stains it looks like it's 20 years old - and I've seen umpires wearing gear I wouldn't be caught dead in - all because they won't break down and buy a new CP for $200+ until the one they have falls apart! A lot of umpire gear makers have stepped out, or backed off, from working to innovate and produce better or newer gear. So, we get the left-overs and hand-me-down's from whatever time/gear is left after they get done selling to their truly profitable market (catchers!). Even F3, founded and run by a former professional umpire, is a catchers-first business... and you can't blame them. Catchers spending and buying make it possible for them to create umpire gear too - not the other way around. I sincerely wish you the very best of luck, but I won't be shelling out $150+ on an unproven pad jacket. You can say that it is "top of the line" and "just like Team Wendy" - but until several well-respected and knowledgeable umpires have bought it and their reviews start saying that it's just as good as the sought-after products like TW, AA or Power padding, then unfortunately I won't be investing that kind of cash in hopes of getting a good product. And I truly believe the vast majority of umpires think and believe a lot of what I just stated. In all likelihood, you're going to have to approach this as a labor of love and just hope to make some fun money on the side. Ray Brownlie started small and you will have to also, unless you have deep pockets to fund a startup business. My recommendation is to focus on one thing and excel at it, like Ray did (CP harness and folder were his first items I believe) and build up a following. Once you can do that, then your name is out there and people will trust you more, and then you can start growing the business and truly making some money. But if you're hoping to get rich (or even make a few thousand a year) from this 'CP pad-jacket' opportunity, then I don't think this is the goose that lays the golden nugget for you. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I hope I am for your sake, because I love seeing a young guy take initiative and get-after-it like you've done! I truly wish you the very best reward for your labor and I hope that it takes off and you get rich from your new venture! 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekGDS Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 Nailed it. I'll just emphasize on what was just said. The umpire community mostly operates on word of mouth, and few are willing to be the first to try something until it has been endorsed by their peers. UE is a great example of exactly that. Most people tend to either spend the minimum and aim to make it last as long as they can, or spend the least amount possible and regularly replace it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umpstu Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, wolfe_man said: And be aware that it takes a lot of time to get a new product off of the ground. Most umpires are not wealthy and will not buy a new piece of gear that's unproven - unless a friend/peer/contact, etc. has personally recommended it to them. I suppose they might splurge if it was endorsed by MLB guys too (see Wilson and MLB logo for example). Umpires are a notoriously hard market to influence and make money in. How many new shoe companies are jumping in to try and take over for Reebok and Nike who don't make plate shoes anymore? None. Even NB has slowed it way down which is why so many are turning to Mizuno in hopes that they'll fill the need that's been created. Why? Because umpires are not paid a lot of money. Some (LL) even work as volunteers. This means if they buy anything, it comes straight out of their own wallet and they're losing money on their hobby... which is why navy is still around for HS ball. Umpires are cheap and will wear a shirt until it's faded purple and worn out. I've seen hats that have so many sweat stains it looks like it's 20 years old - and I've seen umpires wearing gear I wouldn't be caught dead in - all because they won't break down and buy a new CP for $200+ until the one they have falls apart! A lot of umpire gear makers have stepped out, or backed off, from working to innovate and produce better or newer gear. So, we get the left-overs and hand-me-down's from whatever time/gear is left after they get done selling to their truly profitable market (catchers!). Even F3, founded and run by a former professional umpire, is a catchers-first business... and you can't blame them. Catchers spending and buying make it possible for them to create umpire gear too - not the other way around. I sincerely wish you the very best of luck, but I won't be shelling out $150+ on an unproven pad jacket. You can say that it is "top of the line" and "just like Team Wendy" - but until several well-respected and knowledgeable umpires have bought it and their reviews start saying that it's just as good as the sought-after products like TW, AA or Power padding, then unfortunately I won't be investing that kind of cash in hopes of getting a good product. And I truly believe the vast majority of umpires think and believe a lot of what I just stated. In all likelihood, you're going to have to approach this as a labor of love and just hope to make some fun money on the side. Ray Brownlie started small and you will have to also, unless you have deep pockets to fund a startup business. My recommendation is to focus on one thing and excel at it, like Ray did (CP harness and folder were his first items I believe) and build up a following. Once you can do that, then your name is out there and people will trust you more, and then you can start growing the business and truly making some money. But if you're hoping to get rich (or even make a few thousand a year) from this 'CP pad-jacket' opportunity, then I don't think this is the goose that lays the golden nugget for you. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I hope I am for your sake, because I love seeing a young guy take initiative and get-after-it like you've done! I truly wish you the very best reward for your labor and I hope that it takes off and you get rich from your new venture! Here's a big thing I consider. Ray Brownlie and UmpLife is a name and brand I trust. Even though I have a fairly new chest protector that I love, because of the type of person I am, Wolf_man like, I would give serious consideration to buying an UmpLife chest protector. I trust Ray's products. I do a lot of research when buying my gear. I just won't buy replacement padding if I can get a quality chest protector for close to the same amount. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chartwig03 Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 5 hours ago, The Short Umpire said: Exactly! Or you can do what my barbers do. They raise their prices when they get too busy. Then the ones who want the service will still pay. Then once they get too busy, they raise again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 On 2/15/2024 at 8:05 AM, Umpiresrock74 said: How much would you guys idealy pay for replacement protective padding, if it was some of the best out there? Like top line military grade padding. Something similar to team wendy. Add me to the same list @The Short Umpire is on: you are asking the wrong question and would have a brutal time getting a business plan approved by asking that first. The first question is how much do you need to cover costs? Then, how much do you need to make so that it is worth your time? Then you can figure out if umpires will pay that. Then you can figure out if they will pay more than that. You said "ideally." Ideally, I wouldn't have to pay for it. That would be ideal. "Like top line military grade padding." I don't need top line padding. I need something that dissipates or absorbs force, not something that keeps the strap from rubbing on my shoulder. Like @wolfe_man, I admire and appreciate what you are up to . . . just trying to offer some advice from the business side as opposed to the umpire side. You need to be an expert, not the door-to-door salesman who picked up surplus stock and has a great opportunity selling monkeys. (Sorry, just listened to a podcast and learned that Jim Jones was a door-to-door monkey salesman at one point. Yeah, that whole thing is just weird on so many levels that it is fascinating.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aging_Arbiter Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 45 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said: top line military grade Believe it or not, "Military Grade" is not always a good idea to use as a selling point. As I combat Vet, I have experienced "Military Grade", and that's not always a good thing. See, if you aren't aware, the Military puts their requirements out for bid. I need 500,000 of these.....to do this..... Whatever the equipment may be. They take bids for "government contracts". THE LOWEST BID WINS! It doesn't matter about quality. just my .02 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Bottom Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 7 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said: Believe it or not, "Military Grade" is not always a good idea to use as a selling point. As I combat Vet, I have experienced "Military Grade", and that's not always a good thing. See, if you aren't aware, the Military puts their requirements out for bid. I need 500,000 of these.....to do this..... Whatever the equipment may be. They take bids for "government contracts". THE LOWEST BID WINS! It doesn't matter about quality. just my .02 While some federal contracts are still low bid, many, maybe even most - especially for more complex buys, are best value decisions where price, quality, and other factors can be traded off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Bottom Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 On 2/15/2024 at 8:05 AM, Umpiresrock74 said: How much would you guys idealy pay for replacement protective padding, if it was some of the best out there? Like top line military grade padding. Something similar to team wendy. You also have to solve the value proposition of why your replacement padding is better than other replacement padding. To complicate it further, what's "better" to me may be more or less important to someone else. For example, somehow who umps a lot in 95+ heat might value breathability and light weight at the expense of a little protection, vs. someone who primarily umps in colder climates, etc. Then you have to overcome the reputation issue - even top line companies give free equipment out to ump influencers. For example, All Star involved some on the board (not me) in both designing and testing/evaluating their Cobalt CP. If you really want to make this a true long term business you likely will need to do something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umpiresrock74 Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 38 minutes ago, Rock Bottom said: You also have to solve the value proposition of why your replacement padding is better than other replacement padding. To complicate it further, what's "better" to me may be more or less important to someone else. For example, somehow who umps a lot in 95+ heat might value breathability and light weight at the expense of a little protection, vs. someone who primarily umps in colder climates, etc. Then you have to overcome the reputation issue - even top line companies give free equipment out to ump influencers. For example, All Star involved some on the board (not me) in both designing and testing/evaluating their Cobalt CP. If you really want to make this a true long term business you likely will need to do something like that. Well I am finishing up a Ridell for a member on this page. Should be done tomorrow. Will send pics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzer Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 After talking with Mad Max on friday I guess I should chime in and tell you where I am at right now. It is true I am now working full time on what I will say is a Hard Good legacy project(s) which will be 3 products with a distinctive Brand name under the UL branding. These will be protectives based products that will be tested this season at both MLB and MiLB levels with a soft launch later in the year. I am lucky that I have those contacts to bring products to market but started out the opposite way until the pro umpires started to contact me after they had seen my products on armature umpires at camps or clinics. A few years ago I went down the CP replacement pad option and had everything ready to go and a very good price point to work with but there were just too many variables to deal with until I found the solution to make the pad work on so many protectors. I am not going to say how I figured it out but I know you will understand why. This project remains viable and still may come to the market but right now I am concentrating my efforts make my version of the ultimate protective chest pad. Retail this replacement pad would sell for $79.99-$89.99 I have used and owned most of all of them and I see what works and what doesn't work so I think I have a good starting point. My two go to units are the Carlucci and the Power but I cannot make both. We all remember Reebok Magistrate plate and base shoes, we all remember they felt like slippers and we wish they would come back. That is both CP's I mentioned and they are also not coming back. Modern foams combined with breathable fabrics with an ABS shell can be achieved and retailed for $150-$179.99 if sufficient units are produced. The best solution is my version of the Power and that is where I am heading. Stay Tuned 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 20 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said: Believe it or not, "Military Grade" is not always a good idea to use as a selling point. As I combat Vet, I have experienced "Military Grade", and that's not always a good thing. See, if you aren't aware, the Military puts their requirements out for bid. I need 500,000 of these.....to do this..... Whatever the equipment may be. They take bids for "government contracts". THE LOWEST BID WINS! It doesn't matter about quality. just my .02 So true, so true. Also, another thing in that "what does it mean" category is what does that mean? What is that foam designed to do? I don't need something that is designed to stop bullets (which are meant to penetrate with their impact), I need something designed to stop baseballs (which are meant to "punch" in their impact). All impacts are not the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 19 hours ago, Rock Bottom said: While some federal contracts are still low bid, many, maybe even most - especially for more complex buys, are best value decisions where price, quality, and other factors can be traded off. If it is written properly, this should be the case. In my short time in government, we used the term "lowest responsible bid," meaning they had to prove they could deliver AND they had to prove the product was responsibly built. Sadly, I came to a board that (before me) often forgot to require a delivery time on those contracts. We were still waiting for a simple project (roofing of a garage) four years later, and our attorney would not let us serve notice to cancel the contract because the previous board had put no delivery date or deadline. (I still vehemently disagree with that decision. I motioned to put the contract back out for bid and dared the contractor sue us so he could explain to a judge why he had not completed a one-day job over four years later.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umpiresrock74 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 5 hours ago, The Man in Blue said: So true, so true. Also, another thing in that "what does it mean" category is what does that mean? What is that foam designed to do? I don't need something that is designed to stop bullets (which are meant to penetrate with their impact), I need something designed to stop baseballs (which are meant to "punch" in their impact). All impacts are not the same. Well there goes my business. Lol. Was worth a try. Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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