Problem coaches help

[mark38090]

I've been umpiring for 20+ years, mainly rec ball, a little travel ball and school ball. I've been doing all the 12u Call Ripken games at this particular park for 10 years or so and now I'm faced with a unique problem. I've got one set of coaches that argue every call, every pitch, even had there score keeper argue with other score keepers and opening day started complaining at the plate meeting. I was pretty lenient last year with only one eject, this year fall ball has started and in 2 games I've had to toss 2 coaches and then they refused to leave until I threaten to forfeit the game. There's no park admin there so I don't really have any options. Fortunately tonight I had a partner and had other coaches from the park witness the whole event and the called the league admin before the game was over. 

Other than keep ejecting these guys and the kids listen to the coaches be asshats is there a way y'all handle dosh like these that I'm missing? 

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, mark38090 said:

I've been umpiring for 20+ years, mainly rec ball, a little travel ball and school ball. I've been doing all the 12u Call Ripken games at this particular park for 10 years or so and now I'm faced with a unique problem. I've got one set of coaches that argue every call, every pitch, even had there score keeper argue with other score keepers and opening day started complaining at the plate meeting. I was pretty lenient last year with only one eject, this year fall ball has started and in 2 games I've had to toss 2 coaches and then they refused to leave until I threaten to forfeit the game. There's no park admin there so I don't really have any options. Fortunately tonight I had a partner and had other coaches from the park witness the whole event and the called the league admin before the game was over. 

Other than keep ejecting these guys and the kids listen to the coaches be asshats is there a way y'all handle dosh like these that I'm missing? 

If the league admin does not do something that team needs to miss having umpires. Why are you all showing up?

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

If the league admin does not do something that team needs to miss having umpires. Why are you all showing up?

Agree with Jimurray. 

Keep dumping if you're going to work those games, but I wouldn't show up for those games anymore. You don't need to put up with that abuse.

You can always find other games.

[The Man in Blue]

In a situation like that, the best view of the game is from your couch.

[Coach Carl]

If the league administration is not creating a culture where this is unacceptable, you have a difficult, if not impossible task to keep them in line.  In my experience, many volunteer coaches in rec leagues don't understand umpire etiquette at all.  They need to be taught (and they need to be willing students).  If these guys are getting ejected and things aren't changing then all three of these problems are present (culture, teaching, learning). 

You've been with the league for 10 years so I assume you have some interest in it's well-being.  If that is the case, I'd try to work with them on it and see if they are willing to be helped.  Most people want their kids to be part of a good league.  Most people don't want to see their kids playing in a game where all the coaches do is bitch and moan to the umpires.  It really just becomes a matter of the league leadership doing something about it.   If they won't, then they need to know that you won't work for them.  There is an umpire shortage and there are all sorts of videos on social media of coaches acting like idiots.  It shouldn't be too hard to convince them that they don't want their league to be in the next viral video.  If they can't see that, then there is nothing you can do.

[834k3r]

13 hours ago, mark38090 said:

I've been umpiring for 20+ years, mainly rec ball, a little travel ball and school ball. I've been doing all the 12u Call Ripken games at this particular park for 10 years or so and now I'm faced with a unique problem. I've got one set of coaches that argue every call, every pitch, even had there score keeper argue with other score keepers and opening day started complaining at the plate meeting. I was pretty lenient last year with only one eject, this year fall ball has started and in 2 games I've had to toss 2 coaches and then they refused to leave until I threaten to forfeit the game. There's no park admin there so I don't really have any options. Fortunately tonight I had a partner and had other coaches from the park witness the whole event and the called the league admin before the game was over. 

Other than keep ejecting these guys and the kids listen to the coaches be asshats is there a way y'all handle dosh like these that I'm missing? 

Last night shouldn't have been the first time someone talked to the league commissioner/board/leadership. Their response will dictate a lot of how things go moving forward. I would approach the league and request they have a league representative at the problem teams' games. Additionally, I would tell the coaches at the plate meeting that the coaches are adults and the kids are watching. Then I'd mention that if the arguing gets out of hand the umpiring crew will leave--and then follow through with it, don't just threaten to forfeit the game.

[SeeingEyeDog]

@mark38090, brother to brother...I am sorry you are having to deal with this. You are the salt of the earth, workhorse umpire that makes these leagues go and the kind of umpires we all need around The Game. Please do not allow these actions to negatively impact you and do not take any of this personally. You are simply dealing with people who either don't know how to behave on a baseball field or they do know and are making bad choices.

Others above have indicated the next step (or what should have been in place all along...)...get the league administration and/or your umpiring association engaged with this situation immediately. Remember, we don't take the field looking to eject or discipline someone. They eject themselves through their actions and words.

What we permit...we promote, whether we actively want to promote or not. As soon as you take the field and the plate meeting has started, you and your partner(s) are the authority. If you see or hear things that are inappropriate address them as soon as they happen. Do NOT presume that "things will take care of themselves" or "things will go away" if you ignore them. They will only escalate. Check with your league leadership and or umpire association so that you are crystal clear on what the discipline escalation is for these games. Have the conversation with your superiors to make sure 100% that they will back you with the potential discipline and ejections you might be handing out. Here is a sample from my association:

Profane, Prolonged, Personal...are any of the words and or actions checking these boxes? Yes? Discipline should be applied:

1) Call time, take your mask off, come to the edge of the dirt circle and stare at the offending person until they shut it. You say nothing here and may also choose to put your hand up in a stop motion.

2) Call time, take your mask off, come to the edge of the dirt circle hold up the stop sign again and say, "That's enough. This is your verbal warning" Make a brief note in your notebook of who the warning was issued to, why it was issued (what they did or said) and what point of the game is it.

3) Call time, take your mask off, come to the edge of the dirt circle and say, "This is your written warning for (briefly state what they are doing or saying that is wrong)..." "arguing balls and strikes..." for example, and then add, "...if you continue, you will be restricted to the dugout." Once again, write down who the warning was issued to, why it was issued and what point of the game is it.

4) ...come to the edge of the dirt circle, "You are now restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game. If you continue, you will be ejected." Once again, make your notes.

5) Ejection...and again with the notes.

     Make no mistake, there are always the magic words, phrases and or actions that can enable you to proceed directly to an ejection. Make sure you document everything as you go so you don't have to remember anything later. Write up your ejection report immediately, take a shower, give it an hour or so...re-read the ejection report, make any final adjustments and send it in. Make sure when someone is taking themselves through discipline that you are keeping your partner abreast of what exactly you have meted out. A coach doesn't get 5 steps with each umpire. He gets 5 steps, period. So, if he's going to eff around with multiple umpires on the crew, he needs to find out what happens.

     In closing, make sure you are familiar with the discipline baked into the rules for the games you are working. For instance, under FED a coach who leaves the dugout or coach's box to dispute judgement can be restricted to the dugout and if it's egregious enough, the umpire may eject immediately.

     We're always here, brother. We will support you...

~Dawg  

[mark38090]

Thanks for all the replies.  This league didn't have any discipline standards and we've never had this type of situation. I'm waiting on a call from the rec board president and she definitely upset about it but I'm wondering if there will be any consequences. These are the first 2 ejects I've ever had at this park so it'll be integrating to see what happens. I'll reply back when I get more answers. 

[The Man in Blue]

8 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@mark38090, brother to brother...I am sorry you are having to deal with this. You are the salt of the earth, workhorse umpire that makes these leagues go and the kind of umpires we all need around The Game. Please do not allow these actions to negatively impact you and do not take any of this personally. You are simply dealing with people who either don't know how to behave on a baseball field or they do know and are making bad choices.

Others above have indicated the next step (or what should have been in place all along...)...get the league administration and/or your umpiring association engaged with this situation immediately. Remember, we don't take the field looking to eject or discipline someone. They eject themselves through their actions and words.

What we permit...we promote, whether we actively want to promote or not. As soon as you take the field and the plate meeting has started, you and your partner(s) are the authority. If you see or hear things that are inappropriate address them as soon as they happen. Do NOT presume that "things will take care of themselves" or "things will go away" if you ignore them. They will only escalate. Check with your league leadership and or umpire association so that you are crystal clear on what the discipline escalation is for these games. Have the conversation with your superiors to make sure 100% that they will back you with the potential discipline and ejections you might be handing out. Here is a sample from my association:

Profane, Prolonged, Personal...are any of the words and or actions checking these boxes? Yes? Discipline should be applied:

1) Call time, take your mask off, come to the edge of the dirt circle and stare at the offending person until they shut it. You say nothing here and may also choose to put your hand up in a stop motion.

2) Call time, take your mask off, come to the edge of the dirt circle hold up the stop sign again and say, "That's enough. This is your verbal warning" Make a brief note in your notebook of who the warning was issued to, why it was issued (what they did or said) and what point of the game is it.

3) Call time, take your mask off, come to the edge of the dirt circle and say, "This is your written warning for (briefly state what they are doing or saying that is wrong)..." "arguing balls and strikes..." for example, and then add, "...if you continue, you will be restricted to the dugout." Once again, write down who the warning was issued to, why it was issued and what point of the game is it.

4) ...come to the edge of the dirt circle, "You are now restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game. If you continue, you will be ejected." Once again, make your notes.

5) Ejection...and again with the notes.

     Make no mistake, there are always the magic words, phrases and or actions that can enable you to proceed directly to an ejection. Make sure you document everything as you go so you don't have to remember anything later. Write up your ejection report immediately, take a shower, give it an hour or so...re-read the ejection report, make any final adjustments and send it in. Make sure when someone is taking themselves through discipline that you are keeping your partner abreast of what exactly you have meted out. A coach doesn't get 5 steps with each umpire. He gets 5 steps, period. So, if he's going to eff around with multiple umpires on the crew, he needs to find out what happens.

     In closing, make sure you are familiar with the discipline baked into the rules for the games you are working. For instance, under FED a coach who leaves the dugout or coach's box to dispute judgement can be restricted to the dugout and if it's egregious enough, the umpire may eject immediately.

     We're always here, brother. We will support you...

~Dawg  

 

I love you Dawg, but there is no way would I ever recommend those steps.

Unless you are getting a check from MLB, never leave your position to take off your mask and stare at somebody.  Never stay in your position and take off your mask and stare at somebody.  Just never take off your mask and stare at somebody.  You are just egging it on. 

I would also never tell somebody to walk through FIVE STEPS for the same offense.  Prolonged already happened by the time you reach number three, if not sooner.  If you go to a number 4, you are not controlling your game.

[The Ripper]

On 10/19/2023 at 9:02 PM, mark38090 said:

I've been umpiring for 20+ years, mainly rec ball, a little travel ball and school ball. I've been doing all the 12u Call Ripken games at this particular park for 10 years or so and now I'm faced with a unique problem. I've got one set of coaches that argue every call, every pitch, even had there score keeper argue with other score keepers and opening day started complaining at the plate meeting. I was pretty lenient last year with only one eject, this year fall ball has started and in 2 games I've had to toss 2 coaches and then they refused to leave until I threaten to forfeit the game. There's no park admin there so I don't really have any options. Fortunately tonight I had a partner and had other coaches from the park witness the whole event and the called the league admin before the game was over. 

Other than keep ejecting these guys and the kids listen to the coaches be asshats is there a way y'all handle dosh like these that I'm missing? 

Travel ball, travel ball, travel ball 🙄. I wish coaches would realize that they did not get hired to coach, they signed up. I wish they realize, their kid is probably not going to play in the MLB. And finally, I wish  I could buy every parent in the stands a freaking rule book!!! Umpires are not the villains, we are hardworking, smart and talented people, that strive for perfection, but we are human. It can’t be the kids fault, so it has got to be the umpires! I try to avoid travel ball cause I don’t want to deal with idiots, school ball is much better!

[dumbdumb]

sounds like you need a league where the coaches get that, come to (fill in your own word(s) here) speech, right from the start every year. the best leagues with the person at the top, whether its the td, president, etc and your scheduler/booking agent etc. do not allow any nonsense, especially in today's climate. the people at the top who run things, will not bow to peer pressure from either the pillars of society of the area you are in, or the well connected, nor the one's with deep pockets. those types who try to use their power/verbal, financial etc etc get squashed like a bug for any shenanigans, even those end around moves they will try on you.

so, the best bet, is to look for some protection that the NFHS offers most of the time with JV or Varsity sports, or higher NCAA leagues if invited, and you can get a lot of games with them. usually due to the times, they have someone at the sporting events, just in case an incident does happen. a lot of times the coaches are employees of the school district and a bad situation caused by the coach, runs the chance of a bad article in the paper and disciplinary action up to and including termination, and even if not terminated, a less demonstrative coach.

then, for any other ball one may want to call, you personally get to scout leagues who have the leadership that accepts no tomfoolery by coaches what-so-ever, and you can then apply to work those leagues, and not the ones where the administrators let coaches run wild, so to speak.

Good luck.

 

[Kevin_K]

20 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@mark38090, brother to brother...I am sorry you are having to deal with this. You are the salt of the earth, workhorse umpire that makes these leagues go and the kind of umpires we all need around The Game. Please do not allow these actions to negatively impact you and do not take any of this personally. You are simply dealing with people who either don't know how to behave on a baseball field or they do know and are making bad choices.

Others above have indicated the next step (or what should have been in place all along...)...get the league administration and/or your umpiring association engaged with this situation immediately. Remember, we don't take the field looking to eject or discipline someone. They eject themselves through their actions and words.

What we permit...we promote, whether we actively want to promote or not. As soon as you take the field and the plate meeting has started, you and your partner(s) are the authority. If you see or hear things that are inappropriate address them as soon as they happen. Do NOT presume that "things will take care of themselves" or "things will go away" if you ignore them. They will only escalate. Check with your league leadership and or umpire association so that you are crystal clear on what the discipline escalation is for these games. Have the conversation with your superiors to make sure 100% that they will back you with the potential discipline and ejections you might be handing out. Here is a sample from my association:

Profane, Prolonged, Personal...are any of the words and or actions checking these boxes? Yes? Discipline should be applied:

1) Call time, take your mask off, come to the edge of the dirt circle and stare at the offending person until they shut it. You say nothing here and may also choose to put your hand up in a stop motion.

2) Call time, take your mask off, come to the edge of the dirt circle hold up the stop sign again and say, "That's enough. This is your verbal warning" Make a brief note in your notebook of who the warning was issued to, why it was issued (what they did or said) and what point of the game is it.

3) Call time, take your mask off, come to the edge of the dirt circle and say, "This is your written warning for (briefly state what they are doing or saying that is wrong)..." "arguing balls and strikes..." for example, and then add, "...if you continue, you will be restricted to the dugout." Once again, write down who the warning was issued to, why it was issued and what point of the game is it.

4) ...come to the edge of the dirt circle, "You are now restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game. If you continue, you will be ejected." Once again, make your notes.

5) Ejection...and again with the notes.

     Make no mistake, there are always the magic words, phrases and or actions that can enable you to proceed directly to an ejection. Make sure you document everything as you go so you don't have to remember anything later. Write up your ejection report immediately, take a shower, give it an hour or so...re-read the ejection report, make any final adjustments and send it in. Make sure when someone is taking themselves through discipline that you are keeping your partner abreast of what exactly you have meted out. A coach doesn't get 5 steps with each umpire. He gets 5 steps, period. So, if he's going to eff around with multiple umpires on the crew, he needs to find out what happens.

     In closing, make sure you are familiar with the discipline baked into the rules for the games you are working. For instance, under FED a coach who leaves the dugout or coach's box to dispute judgement can be restricted to the dugout and if it's egregious enough, the umpire may eject immediately.

     We're always here, brother. We will support you...

~Dawg  

That's four steps too many.

As @BigUmpire professed many years ago, shoot one monkey and the others tend to settle down.

Why would you permit these nitwits to start sniping at a plate meeting without setting the tone immediately that their behavior is unacceptable and will make their evening shorter that they anticipated?

If they keep being idiots, keep punching their tickets early and often. It gets easier with every ejection.

I have never regretted an ejection. They make my games quieter and more enjoyable 

[JonnyCat]

47 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

I have never regretted an ejection. They make my games quieter and more enjoyable

This!

I have also never regretted an ejection.

The only ejections I've ever regretted are the ones I didn't get.

[SeeingEyeDog]

@The Man in Blue @Kevin_K

I do what I do because that's what the people who sign my checks AND the state athletic association (when it's a HS game) have told me to do. The OP sounded like he needed some support and assistance. The conversation has to start somewhere and I started the conversation where I started it. Mine is one path. There are many paths. Obviously, if a guy comes storming out of the dugout on judgement and is unleashing profanities...he is being ejected immediately. I covered that in my first sentence after step #5.

My mileage is varying here...perhaps yours is too, brothers...

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

I agree, YMMV.  I agree, if the man signing the checks says to do that, do that.

My opinion … I’m probably not working for that man if that is the direction.

My opinion Part II: The man signing checks can give those instructions; I am NEVER going to pass those on to somebody else, ESPECIALLY somebody outside that organization.

My opinion Part III: That process is prolonged (too much rope), personal (take my mask off and STARE AT THEM?!), and profane (absurd).  It should be ejected.  😁😁

My opinion Part IV: Just my opinion.  

[SeeingEyeDog]

Totally agree, @The Man in Blue...if there was one way to do it, THAT'S the way we would all be doing it. We have all worked with guys who are, for eample, just being blistered for their judgement on the plate and are not engaging the blisterer and shutting it down. Go to post-game and ask, "Hey brother? Why didn't you shut that guy down?" and we get a, "Meh...it doesn't bother me." or "Meh...he wasn't worth the paperwork." or some other weak-sauce response. That's some seriously dangerous decision-making.

Maybe someone had a bad day on the job or other personal problems...we talk about leaving our personal business in the parking lot and not taking that on the field but, not everyone is ready, willing and able to do that. I've had partners over-react and prematurely eject players or coaches and again, we talk about it and we get, "Yeah...I was a little quick on the trigger there. I am [insert personal problem here]."

No two game management situations are alike. It's all about filling your administrative tool box with tools and verbal judo, etc. and simply focusing on what is the shortest path that returns us to playing baseball, recording strikes and outs and departing the ballpark safely. Sometimes we can shut someone down with a look. Sometimes they need to be ejected.

There's not much left of this dead, beaten horse...apologies, brothers...

~Dawg 

[The Man in Blue]

No need to apologize!  It gets the discussion going.  Like I said, that may work in some formats if it is the norm there and coaches have learned that is the process.

That’s like a complex I used to work at: if an assistant coach questioned something or made a “safe call” in the coach’s box, they got one warning and then were automatically ejected.  That’s a bit much, IMO, but as was said earlier … shoot one monkey.  It worked for that complex because those were the issues they were dealing with.

[MadMax]

On 10/21/2023 at 7:26 AM, Kevin_K said:

As @BigUmpire professed many years ago, shoot one monkey and the others tend to settle down.

 You made a @BigUmpire reference! 

On 10/21/2023 at 7:26 AM, Kevin_K said:

If they keep being idiots, keep punching their tickets early and often. It gets easier with every ejection.

I'm an exception to the norm (I guess). Ejections are so rare with me, and my last one so long ago, I pretty much have forgotten how to do 'em! 

But in fairness, with most of the games I do, either I don't let the antics get to that point, or my partners get the fun of ejecting the poor b@$t@rds, and I just have to fill-in my support on the Post-game Report. 🫣

[mark38090]

Not much has happened since my post. I was doing a varsity fall ball and batter fouled a 90mph low inside fastball directly into my cup. The family wasn't fazed but the ricochet into my upper thigh caused an injury. The swelling was so bad that my foot kept going to sleep. I'm back on the field this Thursday so hopefully we'll have a good quiet night. 

[MadMax]

On 10/20/2023 at 10:49 PM, UmpWRB4 said:

I wish  I could buy every parent in the stands a freaking rule book!!!

Free App? 

No need to go down the path of the NFHS and print everything for (albeit meager) profit. 

[The Ripper]

19 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Free App? 

No need to go down the path of the NFHS and print everything for (albeit meager) profit. 

Your right, that would save me money!!!!

[Lou B]

Buy every parent a rulebook - I laughed so hard at that one that I spit my Coke 0 all over my keyboard.

Parents and fans already think they know the rules, no way they'd actually take the time to read the rulebook.  Pretty similar to giving rule books to managers! 

[The Ripper]

25 minutes ago, Lou B said:

Buy every parent a rulebook - I laughed so hard at that one that I spit my Coke 0 all over my keyboard.

Parents and fans already think they know the rules, no way they'd actually take the time to read the rulebook.  Pretty similar to giving rule books to managers! 

 Key word = “THINK they know the rules”!