Why do coaches do stuff like this? (bicker over small stuff late up big against an inferior team)

[SeeingEyeDog]

I know...I know...that's a rhetorical question...hey, we're all here for some LULZ.

Ok, so I'm working a varsity team for whom I have not worked before. They are a strong program who is always competitive but, haven't really gone deep in the state tournament. They are coached by an ex-D1 player who is now in his late 30's. From what I saw he is clearly teaching sound fundamentals and a strong sense of discipline in his team's approach to the game. Except...

So, he's the VT up 12 in the bottom half of what everyone knows will be the final half inning. We have R1, 2 outs and the count is 0-1. R1 is stealing on the pitch and the batter tries to check his swing, fails to do so and I say, "Yes he did." and we have a swinging strike. R1 arrives safely into 2B with no throw from F2. Immediately, without asking for time or waiting for time to be granted, Coach says, "Wait...don't you have a foul ball there, Blue?!?!" (As I type this, I am thinking I should have ignored him or told him to remove himself from the field or return to his dugout since he didn't ask for time or wait for time to be granted...you guys tell me.) I just turned to him and said, "Coach, in my judgement we have a clean swing and miss on the pitch, the count is now 0-2 and the runner will remain at second base." He responds with, "Can you please get help on this?" and I says, "No Coach, this is my call and in my judgement, I do not have the ball foul." Game resumes and ends without further incident.

In post-game, my partner gave me an astonished look when I asked him what he had there and said, "No. The bat missed that pitch by 6 inches." Ok, brothers...what do you all have?

~Dawg

[wolfe_man]

Because they're coaches! 🤣

But seriously, I don't try to figure them out - may as well go bang your head on a wall.  It'll do you as much good as trying to figure out what a coach is thinking.

And I would have probably answered him too, but I know a few guys who would have warned him not to come back out without requesting time first.

[urout17]

Well, you're a lot nicer than I would have been.  We all have teams in our areas that are exactly like that and coaches who react just like he did.  I would have just said "Nope, never touched it, 0-2". And then give him my best Cowboy Joe brush-off (just kidding of course). After the "Can you get help" comment I just say "Mike (or whoever), I don't need help on that one." 

[umpstu]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I know...I know...that's a rhetorical question...hey, we're all here for some LULZ.

Ok, so I'm working a varsity team for whom I have not worked before. They are a strong program who is always competitive but, haven't really gone deep in the state tournament. They are coached by an ex-D1 player who is now in his late 30's. From what I saw he is clearly teaching sound fundamentals and a strong sense of discipline in his team's approach to the game. Except...

So, he's the VT up 12 in the bottom half of what everyone knows will be the final half inning. We have R1, 2 outs and the count is 0-1. R1 is stealing on the pitch and the batter tries to check his swing, fails to do so and I say, "Yes he did." and we have a swinging strike. R1 arrives safely into 2B with no throw from F2. Immediately, without asking for time or waiting for time to be granted, Coach says, "Wait...don't you have a foul ball there, Blue?!?!" (As I type this, I am thinking I should have ignored him or told him to remove himself from the field or return to his dugout since he didn't ask for time or wait for time to be granted...you guys tell me.) I just turned to him and said, "Coach, in my judgement we have a clean swing and miss on the pitch, the count is now 0-2 and the runner will remain at second base." He responds with, "Can you please get help on this?" and I says, "No Coach, this is my call and in my judgement, I do not have the ball foul." Game resumes and ends without further incident.

In post-game, my partner gave me an astonished look when I asked him what he had there and said, "No. The bat missed that pitch by 6 inches." Ok, brothers...what do you all have?

~Dawg

I would have said nope and nope.

[The Man in Blue]

Just as the OP's question is rhetorical, I see the coach's question the same way.  If he wants to request time and stop play, he can make that request.  Otherwise, he's just getting a head shake from me and we are quickly moving on.  He better hurry off the field if he came out.

Varsity softball yesterday, early in the game a girl hits one straight down off her foot.  I give him a moment but my PU didn't see it, so I immediately kill it.

Late in the game the other team is up to bat.  A girl hits one about six inches out in front of the plate and the mud deadens the impact.  She high-tails it out of the box (no reaction to "being hit") to first base.  I call her out on a banger.  Immediately the HC starts in on my PU, "You didn't have that hitting her foot?  Can you go for help?"  And then the girl, who is now back in the dugout, starts in with, "Yeah, yeah, it hit me!"  🙄

My partner starts to come out and I just shake my head "no."  It was cold and wet and the game was moving too slow.  We weren't getting together, especially when you saw earlier in the game that I was going to kill it if I saw it.

Late in the game, lots of questions become rhetorical.  We don't need to talk about them.  

[SeeingEyeDog]

@wolfe_man, it's just a perfect illustration of how demanding on a person umpiring a baseball game can be. We're going along on a beautiful evening with great pace of play regardless of the score. It doesn't matter if it's a high-leverage playoff such and such...or 13U on some goat track in August. We have to be alert at all times and remember our training. If that WAS a high-leverage situation, I would've stopped him and said, "Coach, please return to your dugout." so, why did I "give him a break" in a low-leverage lopsided game which was down to its final out? A strike in the first inning of a scrimmage is a strike in the game deciding strikeout of the state championships so, why should my interactions with a Coach be any different in a different game situation? Well, they shouldn't. I have to be more consistent. Lesson learned...

@The Man in Blue, I've always thought that since our state athletic associations require coaches to attend all sorts of clinics to get ready for the season, why don't we also require the UIC's for high school umpire associations to give a clinic to coaches, too? We could cover the new rule changes for the upcoming season but, also...hey guys, here's what you need to know about the whens, wheres, whys and hows of talking to umpires. And your foul in the box called properly versus the later NON-foul in the box also called properly is perfect example. Guys, here are all the things we pre-game...and yes, we pre-game foul in the box. It's typically the plate umpire's call but, if the field umpire(s) see that, they can call that, too. If we don't call it foul in the box, then you don't need to come out of the dugout to ask us about it. WE HAVE PLANS FOR THE IRREGULAR THINGS THAT HAPPEN ON THE BALLFIELD! Tag play at the plate? Unless the plate umpire falls over unconscious, that is his call. There is no reason for you to ask him to go to a partner who will be a minimum 60 feet away. Again, it took several decades for the culture of the game to get where it is. We won't fix it overnight. Coaches will attend my proposed clinics and still behave the way they behave. We, state association administrators, school boards, school principals, athletic directors, coaches, parents, players and umpires, have to decide the culture needs improvement. Once we do that, we then to go about improving that which needs improving.

 

~Dawg

[wolfe_man]

4 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@wolfe_man, it's just a perfect illustration of how demanding on a person umpiring a baseball game can be. We're going along on a beautiful evening with great pace of play regardless of the score. It doesn't matter if it's a high-leverage playoff such and such...or 13U on some goat track in August. We have to be alert at all times and remember our training. If that WAS a high-leverage situation, I would've stopped him and said, "Coach, please return to your dugout." so, why did I "give him a break" in a low-leverage lopsided game which was down to its final out? A strike in the first inning of a scrimmage is a strike in the game deciding strikeout of the state championships so, why should my interactions with a Coach be any different in a different game situation? Well, they shouldn't. I have to be more consistent. Lesson learned...

@The Man in Blue, I've always thought that since our state athletic associations require coaches to attend all sorts of clinics to get ready for the season, why don't we also require the UIC's for high school umpire associations to give a clinic to coaches, too? We could cover the new rule changes for the upcoming season but, also...hey guys, here's what you need to know about the whens, wheres, whys and hows of talking to umpires. And your foul in the box called properly versus the later NON-foul in the box also called properly is perfect example. Guys, here are all the things we pre-game...and yes, we pre-game foul in the box. It's typically the plate umpire's call but, if the field umpire(s) see that, they can call that, too. If we don't call it foul in the box, then you don't need to come out of the dugout to ask us about it. WE HAVE PLANS FOR THE IRREGULAR THINGS THAT HAPPEN ON THE BALLFIELD! Tag play at the plate? Unless the plate umpire falls over unconscious, that is his call. There is no reason for you to ask him to go to a partner who will be a minimum 60 feet away. Again, it took several decades for the culture of the game to get where it is. We won't fix it overnight. Coaches will attend my proposed clinics and still behave the way they behave. We, state association administrators, school boards, school principals, athletic directors, coaches, parents, players and umpires, have to decide the culture needs improvement. Once we do that, we then to go about improving that which needs improving.

 

~Dawg

I find no fault in how you handled it my friend.  Some situations require different, more precise handling. Should we be consistent in our punishment and accurate with our calls at all times? Yes, but different coaches may require different volumes. Different situations, no matter how similar they may appear, may require different approaches and remedies.  If you have kids, then you know that each is different.  They may ask the same question, but in reality are looking for entirely different answers.

This is why a good rules guy may not be the best umpire.   They know the rules, but its the personal part (coaches & players) of the game that may avoid them. It's what we always hear, what makes the really good umpires stand out is... game management.   The good ones seem to have a knack of knowing how to respond in every situation. They can avoid the minefields and are prepared for the coach's objections before he even opens his mouth.  That said, they don't cut him off, but really listen to what he is saying/asking and make sense when they reply.

Again, I have no trouble with your response here.  Perhaps some will, but I don't think anyone would say you mishandled it.  We all desire to learn and do better, which is why we keep coming on here and learning from our peers.  The only time we fail is when we think we know it all and start being "that guy" on the field that no coach, no player, no fan - and no partner wants.  Until then, we keep on doing games and learning how to do things better, how to say things better, how to be more approachable and yet stern when needed.  It's also important, but challenging, to learn when we shouldn't say anything.  These all come from time and experience - and experience, as they say, can be a painful teacher sometimes.

[Catch18]

After the "Can you get help" comment I just say "Mike (or whoever), I don't need help on that one." 

To be less “he’s being a hard-ass,” I’ve actually begun telling coaches, “If Bill has it foul, he’ll call it. We don’t hold foul balls waiting to be asked.”

It’s actually been effective and I’ve never had any issues as the game goes on. It’s educational with me, ya know, to be of public service to coaches and all .

[maven]

Why would it be a foul ball? F2 caught it—even if it touched the bat, it's a foul tip, live ball, strike, play on.

If he's on the field, we need to address that, while ignoring his question. "Coach, you can't run out of the dugout for that."

I ignore people shouting at me (unless I'm married to them). At most, I might shake my head no. Stupid questions are especially ripe for being ignored.

[BigBlue4u]

1 hour ago, maven said:

I ignore people shouting at me (unless I'm married to them).

Good line!

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, maven said:

I ignore people shouting at me (unless I'm married to them). 

 

If you are on dirt, you should even ignore them then.  😁

Several years ago I was calling a local 14u softball tournament and had a "hot" game ... competitive and "very engaged" fans.  Some of them knew me and my wife.

Anyway, we hit a point where I had to tell the coaches to tell their fans enough was enough.  They did, and things simmered down a bit.  An inning later, my wife and daughter came by the field.  Not something that normally happens, but they were bringing me lunch.

I'm standing on the third base line between innings and I hear my wife calling me.  She wasn't there earlier to know what was going on, but I'm thinking, "The way this game has been going, there is NO way I am turning around to the crowd."

My wife starts calling me a little louder.  I'm just smiling to the field.  No way I'm turning around.  Finally, one of the fans says, "Lady, you need to quit yelling at him before he throws you out."

Another fan says, "That's his wife."

A third says, "Oh ... he will DEFINITELY throw her out then!"

 

🤣 🤣 🤣

 

OK.  I turned around laughing at that one.

[HokieUmp]

Situations like this are going to get me into whatever trouble I get into in this stage of my 'career.'  I can already be sarcastic and/or grouchy, and now that I've been retired 18 months from the job that paid for umpiring, it's likely to head towards "problematic."

And truth be told, when I read your scenario, and had myself in your position, the very first thing that popped into my head at that initial question from the coach was:  "Did I CALL it foul??   <pause>  Then it wasn't a foul." 

That might not go over well.

[beerguy55]

On 3/24/2023 at 10:03 AM, SeeingEyeDog said:

R1 is stealing on the pitch and the batter tries to check his swing, fails to do so and I say, "Yes he did." and we have a swinging strike. R1 arrives safely into 2B with no throw from F2. Immediately, without asking for time or waiting for time to be granted, Coach says, "Wait...don't you have a foul ball there, Blue?!?!" (As I type this, I am thinking I should have ignored him or told him to remove himself from the field or return to his dugout since he didn't ask for time or wait for time to be granted...you guys tell me.)

As I type this I'm thinking the question is moot.  If F2 caught the ball  it's a foul tip...still live.

Anyway - to answer your original question.   Small penis.

[SeeingEyeDog]

On 3/27/2023 at 10:14 AM, HokieUmp said:

Situations like this are going to get me into whatever trouble I get into in this stage of my 'career.'  I can already be sarcastic and/or grouchy, and now that I've been retired 18 months from the job that paid for umpiring, it's likely to head towards "problematic."

And truth be told, when I read your scenario, and had myself in your position, the very first thing that popped into my head at that initial question from the coach was:  "Did I CALL it foul??   <pause>  Then it wasn't a foul." 

That might not go over well.

@HokieUmp, I completely agree with your thoughts here 100%. The game really needs to evolve to a place where instead of coaches or players asking about something they THINK they saw, that did NOT in fact occur...they do something else instead.

Blue! That's a balk, Blue!

Did you hear an umpire call that a balk? That was not a balk. If it was a balk, we would have called it a balk.

And again...and again...and again...

Congrats to your Lady Hokies,

~Dawg 

[beerguy55]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:14 AM, HokieUmp said:

And truth be told, when I read your scenario, and had myself in your position, the very first thing that popped into my head at that initial question from the coach was:  "Did I CALL it foul??   <pause>  Then it wasn't a foul." 

As a coach, this is exactly the lesson I taught my players.  I would ask them "when is the ball foul?"   And they would all start coming up with attempts to recite the rules, or definitions, or cite examples...some close, so not so close...and I'd finally put them out of their misery and say "when the umpire says it's foul".

It's all that matters.

[JSam21]

Here is my opinion. If play is relaxed and they come out, just call time and answer their question. There is absolutely zero reason to get the ruler out here. 

[Simply The Best]

On 3/24/2023 at 2:16 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

 I've always thought that since our state athletic associations require coaches to attend all sorts of clinics to get ready for the season, why don't we also require the UIC's for high school umpire associations to give a clinic to coaches, too? We could cover the new rule changes for the upcoming season but, also...hey guys, here's what you need to know about the whens, wheres, whys and hows of talking to umpires...

 

~Dawg

Intercommunication between umpires and coaches! Novel.

And absolutely necessary. We established a 'code' of sorts, a system for ejections. Was explained to coaches, worked very well.

Coach approaches, ump hands by side or behind back. Listen. Comment and/or end the conversation   "I hear your view, Coach." If the Coach presses the situation, hands go behind the back and "we're through Coach." If that doesn't do it, eject.

No "you didn't warn me" or "I get to have my say" or whatever. Coach violated a known and agreed to system and got exactly what Coach deserved.

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

3 hours ago, Simply The Best said:

Intercommunication between umpires and coaches! Novel.

And absolutely necessary. We established a 'code' of sorts, a system for ejections. Was explained to coaches, worked very well.

Coach approaches, ump hands by side or behind back. Listen. Comment and/or end the conversation   "I hear your view, Coach." If the Coach presses the situation, hands go behind the back and "we're through Coach." If that doesn't do it, eject.

No "you didn't warn me" or "I get to have my say" or whatever. Coach violated a known and agreed to system and got exactly what Coach deserved.

 

If I'm NFHS and I really, really want to solve all of the sportsmanship issues and general abuse of high school officials? Every parent, player, coach, school administrator and official in every county is required to sit down to a pre-season barbeque before every season. We'd solve 86.4% of our on-field problems in one afternoon or evening.

~Dawg

[MadMax]

15 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

We'd solve 86.4% of our on-field problems in one afternoon or evening.

But that leaves 13.6%, and that 13.6% finds its way to YouTube or Twitter or whatever. 

Everyone (these days) wants either to be famous, or get their 2 cents… ugh, with inflation, can’t even say that anymore… 25¢ in(?).

[JSam21]

21 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

If I'm NFHS and I really, really want to solve all of the sportsmanship issues and general abuse of high school officials? Every parent, player, coach, school administrator and official in every county is required to sit down to a pre-season barbeque before every season. We'd solve 86.4% of our on-field problems in one afternoon or evening.

~Dawg

I'm going to be that guy... How would that solve the problem? There is no pressure. There is no adrenaline. There is no emotion. It is a calm and relaxing (-ish) setting. All of the issues come from the three things I listed. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

On 4/3/2023 at 4:50 PM, JSam21 said:

I'm going to be that guy... How would that solve the problem? There is no pressure. There is no adrenaline. There is no emotion. It is a calm and relaxing (-ish) setting. All of the issues come from the three things I listed. 

Nope...you are absolutely correct. One bbq is not going to fix over 100 years of abuse of umpires. I don't know about your association and your market but, where I work, there are very few people under the age of 50 who are umpiring youth baseball. If the sport continues along this current course, within 20 years we're going to have the same number of games to be umpired and far, far fewer umpires to work them.

We're never going to eliminate all of the bad behavior, verbal and physical assaults directed at umpires. But, if the sport on the whole doesn't improve the culture, the game as we know it today will cease to exist eventually.

~Dawg