Fans unruly? Put a runner on...

[SeeingEyeDog]

Greetings all,

     Recently, my association met with our local youth travel baseball league to discuss a variety of topics of mutual interest. Namely, the increase in the number of baseball games in our area coupled with the ongoing decline in available umpires. Like many officiating associations, my association had a great many umpires resign or reduce their workload during COVID-19. One of the problems identified during this meeting was fan behavior and fan's disrespect of umpires. During the discussion, it was mentioned that in many other sports there are penalties that DIRECTLY impact the game ON THE FIELD. (Power plays in hockey, technical fouls with foul shots in basketball, 15 yard penalties in football, etc...) As a result, the following additional disciplinary actions have been added to the umpire's toolbox:

     As previously, at no time should an umpire ever engage a spectator or anyone outside the fences. If foul language is heard or if inappropriate behavior is observed by the umpire, the manager and the spectator receive an ejection warning (both warnings delivered to the manager). If anything further occurs, the spectator and manager are both ejected. The spectator is then barred from attending any of that league's games for the period of 12 months. The manager serves a one game suspension and may receive additional games of suspension up to a full 12 months pending a review of the league and our association leadership. (The 3P's of disrespect are still applied...Was it personal? Was it profane? Was it prolonged? A fan saying )^#!$%$ I can't believe we didn't get more hits in that inning...would not be grounds for a warning or ejection.)

     If a manager is ejected directly for their conduct (exclusive of spectator activity), they receive a 2 game suspension for their first ejection and a one year suspension for their second ejection.

     If an assistant coach is ejected, they and the manager receive a 2 game suspension for their first ejection and a one year suspension for the assistant and the manager for the assistant's second ejection.

     When an ejection occurs (player, assistant coach or manager), the opposing team receives a runner on 1B (last batted out) the next time they are batting. If the ejection occurs while they are batting they get the runner immediately. If there's already on 1B when the ejection occurs than R1 advances to 2B and the runner back fills at 1B and so on...If the bases are loaded, all runners advance one base, a run scores and the runner again back fills at 1B.

     Once again, this is for our local travel league ONLY! (No other baseball leagues...) Thoughts, brothers? Is anyone out there working leagues with similar policies? If so, what are you doing and how is it working?

~Dawg

[Catch18]

I like the hockey approach.

Identify the culprit:

If on offense, that person’s kid loses his AB next time he rolls up in the lineup (take an out).

If on defense, the kid goes to the dugout for 2 batters (penalty box!).

[Velho]

Interesting. Accolades for addressing the issue. Curious / clarifications:

- How will the bans be enforced? 

- Assistant ejections: Manager is tied exactly to assistant? If assistant gets tossed once both Manager and Assistant get 2 games? If assistant tossed twice, both are banned for a year?

[Catch18]

- How will the bans be enforced? 

Usually by saying “this rule is now, ‘in force.’”

[SeeingEyeDog]

On 10/5/2022 at 6:27 PM, Velho said:

Interesting. Accolades for addressing the issue. Curious / clarifications:

- How will the bans be enforced? 

- Assistant ejections: Manager is tied exactly to assistant? If assistant gets tossed once both Manager and Assistant get 2 games? If assistant tossed twice, both are banned for a year?

Well @Velho...there you've hit on the detail. The issue is never the rule...always the enforcement, eh?

My association covers thousands of games across 2 states and totaling 2,000 something sq. miles. For most non-tournament travel games, the umpires are the authority. There are no "game administrators" present at these games...So, when it's a parent spectating that is ejected, the team manager is responsible for reporting that person's name to league leadership so it can be recorded. Umpires complete an ejection form following the game and the umpire association will follow up with league leadership to ensure the names are being recorded. But, what if it was someone gaslighting from the OTHER team sitting on their side of the field? What if it was just someone out walking their dog totally unaffiliated with either team? If an umpire ejects a fan on Tuesday and I work that ejected fan's team on Wednesday, I might not even know about that ejection unless my association tells me. And would I even know what this person looks like? And a million other scenarios...it's not perfect. It never will be. It's really just a deterrent or threat.

Yes, managers are tied to their assistants and as such are responsible for their assistant's behavior, speech and choices. If an assistant is tossed once both the manager and the assistant get 2 games. If an assistant is tossed twice, both are banned for a year...yes...all of that is true.

~Dawg

[Vegas_Ump]

I will sheepishly admit that I quit umpiring after 34 years because the fans were getting out of hand.  They would say such obscene things like comparisons to Angel Hernandez!

Seriously, people were disagreeing with my calls citing their vast rule knowledge from Calvin ball!

Now I personally have never had to do this, but in my 34 years as a Little League volunteer umpire our approach was as follows if the fans got over the top unruly:

1.  Clear the field.

2.  Summon both managers to the plate.

3.  Suggest that the game be suspended until such time as the fans improve their deportment--that is, give it to the league.  Let them and the managers talk to their miserable parents who seem to want to spoil the game that's being played by their little urchins.

4.  Then if necessary, follow through with the threat to suspend the game and tell them to have a nice day.  Let the league sort it out!  Not you!

5.  Leave, and don't look for trouble.  Call the sheriff is necessary.  (Seen that happen on an adjacent field 2 years ago!)

Recommendations of this type are outlined in Little League training documents.

The managers have no control over their fans directly during a game.  And you as an umpire have no authority on anything that happens outside the fences.  So I think punishing the managers for parents who are 100% mouth is not the right answer.  The problem is that the parents need a clue from the league.  And then politely invite them to become volunteer umps!  Might change their perspective.

Mike

Las Vegas

[SeeingEyeDog]

@Vegas_Ump...when I was growing up as a LL player in the early 80s, our local league used to REQUIRE a parent to attend 1 of 3 scheduled pre-season parent meetings. My son just got done playing LL a few years ago and although it was a different league than the one I grew up with, they hold those meetings but, they are not required in order for a child to participate.

Were parents more misbehaved 40 years ago? Or now? I don't know...it's clearly always been a problem in some form and likely will continue. But, at least by requiring attendance at a meeting like that, the league gets a formal opportunity to establish what will and will not be tolerated.

~Dawg

[BrainFreeze]

On 10/5/2022 at 4:09 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

     If a manager is ejected directly for their conduct (exclusive of spectator activity), they receive a 2 game suspension for their first ejection and a one year suspension for their second ejection.

Yes to two games.  Should be subject to a disciplinary hearing first, though.

     If an assistant coach is ejected, they and the manager receive a 2 game suspension for their first ejection and a one year suspension for the assistant and the manager for the assistant's second ejection.

If an assistant gets ejected, they should be done for the season, after their disciplinary hearing.

     When an ejection occurs (player, assistant coach or manager), the opposing team receives a runner on 1B (last batted out) the next time they are batting. If the ejection occurs while they are batting they get the runner immediately. If there's already on 1B when the ejection occurs than R1 advances to 2B and the runner back fills at 1B and so on...If the bases are loaded, all runners advance one base, a run scores and the runner again back fills at 1B.

No.  Don't muck with the game. This is just made-up stuff.

     Once again, this is for our local travel league ONLY! (No other baseball leagues...) Thoughts, brothers? Is anyone out there working leagues with similar policies? If so, what are you doing and how is it working?

Kudos to you and to your association for trying to rein in obnoxious behavior.  Allow me to expand briefly on my comments above.

I agree with the severe suspensions for managers.  They need to set the example and if the example they want to set is being tossed, then they aren't needed.  Full stop.  

Assistants should be given far less leeway.  I hope your association is making it clear to assistants that they are to be seen and not heard.  If they can't do that they have no business being an assistant.  If your association is making clear the proper role of an assistant and they get tossed anyway, forget suspending them, they don't belong in the dugout because they can't follow simple rules. 

Hearings should be an important part of any process like this.  First and foremost, it's the one opportunity for the manager or assistant to apologize and act like an adult.  Second, and almost as important, your association doesn't want to bounce a coach when the umpire is full of crap.  ( It does happen -- we all want to give our brothers the benefit of the doubt, but there are bad umpires too.... ) 

I disagree with the in-game penalties.  I get the intent, and in a way I agree with the intent -- severe and immediate penalties for unsportsmanlike behavior.  Only my opinion, but I don't think changing the playing structure to include extra penalties is appropriate. 

Thank you for bringing this up!  I think it's a good discussion. 

[Vegas_Ump]

On 10/8/2022 at 12:23 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

@Vegas_Ump...when I was growing up as a LL player in the early 80s, our local league used to REQUIRE a parent to attend 1 of 3 scheduled pre-season parent meetings. My son just got done playing LL a few years ago and although it was a different league than the one I grew up with, they hold those meetings but, they are not required in order for a child to participate.

Were parents more misbehaved 40 years ago? Or now? I don't know...it's clearly always been a problem in some form and likely will continue. But, at least by requiring attendance at a meeting like that, the league gets a formal opportunity to establish what will and will not be tolerated.

~Dawg

Dawg:  That's a good put!  My experience has been 100% as a Little League Volunteer Umpire.  So you can put a whammy on the parents to suggest that if they want quality trained umpires FOR FREE, then they need to zip the pie hole when they think they can do a better job than the volunteers.  And then, ask THEM to volunteer!

Cheers!

Mike

[SeeingEyeDog]

@BrainFreeze, our association leadership talks to our clients (the leagues' leadership) and our leadership tells their leadership and they agree on how umpires and coaches should interact. As an association, we discuss this monthly amongst the umpire brotherhood. Offhand, this messaging has not made it down on the coaching side. Our youth travel league client is independent and they have no certification requirements for their coaches. (Compare with USA Hockey who has one of the most robust coaching certification programs which should serve as a model for all youth sports.) For travel baseball, if you can stroke the check, your child can play youth travel. If you can pass a background check, you can coach.

For travel ball, we play FED rules with local modifications. As such, for managers we go verbal warning, written warning, dugout restriction and ejection. Of course, magic words and or acts at ANY time can be met with an immediate ejection. For assistants, we can eject immediately for anything, however we typically give a warning to an assistant. Any warning to an assistant is also a verbal warning for the manager. An ejection of the assistant is a written warning to the manager.

Hearings are not usually necessary for our travel ball client. We complete a written ejection report. This report is reviewed with leadership within 24 hours of the end of the game and then association leadership follows up with league leadership and they handle it internally from there. We do have the mechanic for a conference call or sit-down but, those usually only happen if something very egregious and or unusual occurs.

~Dawg

[aaluck]

On 10/5/2022 at 4:09 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Thoughts, brothers?

I think anything you do to address this is a positive.  I recently stumbled on some youtube videos.  Ive seen (and agree with) umps simply calling the game.  Worth watching the entire 6 minutes.

 

[ErichKeane]

One of the nice things that they did in our area was give us the ability to toss fans directly if we care to.  Additionally, I'm told we can 'criminal trespass' fans if we like, so if they refuse to leave we can get the police to take them away.

The local tourney organization I work for does something similar: if an ump wants a fan gone, he has to leave the facility for the remainder of the game, and a site director makes it happen.  We of course DO have to justify it to our assigner afterwards, but its also a nice tool to have in our pocket.

In exchange, we're expected to work respectfully with the fans, but it is sometimes quite useful.

[834k3r]

Last year I was BU for a LL (Majors, 12-year olds) league game. VT coaches started to jaw at the PU, and then the parents joined. The PU did respond to some of the parents, but ignored most. After the game, we called our UIC. He made a point to show up at the next game with that team, and made sure the two of us from the first game were scheduled as well. The UIC discussed things with the parents and let the two of us call the game undisturbed.

Thankfully that quelled the team's parents. I know something needs to be done before what happened in Jersey (I think? The incident with the 70-year old umpire that required jaw surgery) becomes more prevalent.

I believe travel ball is the biggest area of concern. Coaches with high expectations and parents who not only pay thousands of dollars to be on the team, but believe their kid is going to be the next Julio Rodriguez--they're the biggest problem. How many tournament directors can be at every game to ensure calm parents? Near zero, I would bet.

[The Man in Blue]

On 10/25/2022 at 3:11 PM, aaluck said:

I think anything you do to address this is a positive.  I recently stumbled on some youtube videos.  I've seen (and agree with) umps simply calling the game.  Worth watching the entire 6 minutes.

 

 

I have no objection to calling a game when the circumstances deteriorate and there is no recourse left.

I do have issues with the way every one of those were done though.  Do not throw a hissy-quit back at the fans.

I've had it happen twice.  The first time was a varsity game.  We called the coaches to the plate and explained to them what the problems were and what the consequences were.  When they both refused to take action or call the A.D. to the field, we walked off the field to a sequestered area and waited for the A.D.  We did eventually return after the A.D. had cleared most of the fans.  The only reason we returned was due to the behavior of the kids -- they had not gotten involved in the nonsense with the coaches and fans.

The second time was a travel ball "state tournament" final.  After a near fight between players and several ejections, one of the coaches told us he no longer had enough players.  We advised the coaches (who were now on the field about to fight) and as I turned around to motion for the T.D., there was already a police officer behind me.  I said, "We're done."  The officer said, "I'm glad you said it, I didn't want to have to be the one to say it.  Now we need to get you out of here."  We were escorted out of the park and they didn't let anybody leave until we were gone.  I drove 15-20 minutes home with my full plate gear still on.

[JonnyCat]

On 10/5/2022 at 2:09 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Once again, this is for our local travel league ONLY! (No other baseball leagues...) Thoughts, brothers? Is anyone out there working leagues with similar policies? If so, what are you doing and how is it working?

I like the idea of what you're doing. It needs to start somewhere, so I applaud that organization for trying to do something.

It would be real easy to adopt rules that umpires can eject fans. It's just a matter or putting it in the rulebooks. I also don't know why the aversion for umpires dumping unruly fans for some. Most fans think we can anyway, so why not make it official? I think we should do it more often, whether it is in the rules or not.

I don't know if that's the solution, but we have to do something.

[BLWizzRanger]

After reading these, I am reminded of the situation I had this past prep season.  In the early round of the state playoffs, I had the visiting school's fans going ape crap over a few calls.  The ring leader was the school district's superintendent. Yes, the one who should be showing the best sportsmanship and setting an example was the most vocal and most demonstrative over a few calls (BTW, his team did some stupid stuff but pulled out the win).  In fact, he was so bad I asked a local police officer to go over there and have him warned that he needed to cool down.  I mentioned to the PO who he was as well. (I had asked the HT Coach where their AD was and the coach was no help in finding them, thus asking the PO).  The superintendent has pulled the 'do you know who I am?' routine before so I am sure he tried that one again.  It calmed him/them down some, but, you could still hear the comments. If it continued at the same level, I would have thrown them out as they were that disgusting.

I know the visiting coach and he is a very nice guy as my experiences with him came as he coached my son earlier (before I became an umpire).  I don't think I am going to put him a position in telling his boss, the super, that he needs to calm down.  But, in this situation, I was prepared to do the ejection if it came to it.

[BigBlue4u]

Things have really changed since I played LL.  Back then, the parents were very supportive of the players, (catcher, trying to throw out stealing runner at second, throws ball beyond centerfielder and two runs score)  "That's OK Billy, get him next time. " I don't recall any interactions with the fans towards the umpires at all.  Oh yeah...forgot to tell you. That was 55 years ago.