If one person got hurt....

[BLWizzRanger]

I think I am in bemusement with this one... but, no one got hurt, in a 'scrimmage,' yada yada yada

Set the scene.  Four fields in clover leaf.  Three games going on.  Roughly 6:30 PM in the evening.

My game was in extra Innings, Top 8, 0 outs, 2-2 count, no one on. Jr Legion game.  I am BU.

This was the only game during the weekend that the visiting was within 3 runs of the winning score.  They had gotten hammered in a stopped game that only lasted 1.66 innings after being down by 20 runs on Saturday and getting 10 runned earlier on Sunday. 

PU calls for a 30 minute delay because he hears thunder.  No wind. No lightning. Clouds far away over another valley.  No other field stops play.  He is new to the area and doesn't know the weather pattern for the area.  I had heard the same and it was only the second rumble of thunder for the day.

Visiting team stops the game because they have a 3 hr trip home and didn't feel like waiting. 

There was no talking to the PU to change his mind and while I supported him - didn't go against him - he was technically correct but really premature in delaying the game.  I have experienced a many of storms at these fields - 2 inches of water walking to car type of storms.  This wasn't a time to run for shelter. 

The one excuse that I absolutely hate is that 'if one person got hurt, it would be my ass.' Totally makes me shudder to think that someone is stupid enough not being able to make their own minds up to get to safety when they feel they need to.  They can see the sky, hear the thunder, feel the wind just like us and if it makes them want to leave the field, do what you need to do.   

Slight sour taste in my mouth but again, no one got hurt, only a scrimmage, yada yada yada. 

[ArchAngel72]

Meh with me and the LL kids 

Rumbles aint nothing  I need to see lightning myself. The second I see a lightning bolt. Time OFF THE FIELD..

 

 

heck that was not thunder that was a semi on the highway...

 

[The Man in Blue]

https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-myths

Myth: If it’s raining or there aren’t clouds overhead, you’re safe from lightning.

Fact: Lightning often strikes more than three miles from the center of the thunderstorm, far outside the rain or thunderstorm cloud. “Bolts from the blue” can strike 10-15 miles from the thunderstorm.

Myth: If thunderstorms threaten while you are outside playing a game, it is okay to finish it before seeking shelter.
Fact: Many lightning casualties occur because people do not seek shelter soon enough. No game is worth death or life-long injuries. Seek proper shelter immediately if you hear thunder. Adults are responsible for the safety of children.

https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-heat

The term heat lightning is commonly used to describe lightning from a distant thunderstorm just too far away to see the actual cloud-to-ground flash or to hear the accompanying thunder.

 ... the sound of thunder can only be heard for about 10 miles from a flash.

https://www.weather.gov/media/owlie/Lightning-Brochure18.pdf

Each year in the United States, there are about 25 million cloud-to-ground lightning flashes and about 300 people struck by lightning. Of those struck, about 30 people are killed and others suffer lifelong disabilities. Most of these tragedies can be prevented. When thunderstorms threaten, get inside a building with plumbing and electricity, or a hard-topped metal vehicle!

The National Weather Service collects information on weather-related deaths to learn how to prevent these tragedies. Many lightning victims say they were “caught” outside in the storm and couldn’t get to a safe place. Other victims simply waited too long before seeking shelter. With proper planning, similar tragedies can be avoided.

Some people were struck because they went back outside too soon. Stay inside a safe building or vehicle for at least 30 minutes after you hear the last thunder. While 30 minutes may seem like a long time, it is necessary to be safe.

WHAT YOU MIGHT NOT KNOW ABOUT LIGHTNING

• All thunderstorms produce lightning and are dangerous. Fortunately, people can be safe if they follow some simple guidelines when thunderstorms are forecast.
• Lightning often strikes outside the area of heavy rain and may strike as far as 10 miles from any rainfall. Many lightning deaths occur ahead of storms before any rain arrives or after storms have seemingly passed and the rain has ended.
• If you can hear thunder, you are in danger. Don’t be fooled by blue skies. If you hear thunder, lightning is close enough to pose an immediate threat.

 

If you belong to a local association and you have regular meetings, I suggest contacting your local National Weather Service office and scheduling a meteorologist to come present to the group.  It is VERY informative and will hopefully open some eyes.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I think I am in bemusement with this one... but, no one got hurt, in a 'scrimmage,' yada yada yada

Set the scene.  Four fields in clover leaf.  Three games going on.  Roughly 6:30 PM in the evening.

My game was in extra Innings, Top 8, 0 outs, 2-2 count, no one on. Jr Legion game.  I am BU.

This was the only game during the weekend that the visiting was within 3 runs of the winning score.  They had gotten hammered in a stopped game that only lasted 1.66 innings after being down by 20 runs on Saturday and getting 10 runned earlier on Sunday. 

PU calls for a 30 minute delay because he hears thunder.  No wind. No lightning. Clouds far away over another valley.  No other field stops play.  He is new to the area and doesn't know the weather pattern for the area.  I had heard the same and it was only the second rumble of thunder for the day.

Visiting team stops the game because they have a 3 hr trip home and didn't feel like waiting. 

There was no talking to the PU to change his mind and while I supported him - didn't go against him - he was technically correct but really premature in delaying the game.  I have experienced a many of storms at these fields - 2 inches of water walking to car type of storms.  This wasn't a time to run for shelter. 

The one excuse that I absolutely hate is that 'if one person got hurt, it would be my ass.' Totally makes me shudder to think that someone is stupid enough not being able to make their own minds up to get to safety when they feel they need to.  They can see the sky, hear the thunder, feel the wind just like us and if it makes them want to leave the field, do what you need to do.   

Slight sour taste in my mouth but again, no one got hurt, only a scrimmage, yada yada yada. 

To copy the most important part of @The Man in Blue's post:

"If you can hear thunder, you are in danger. Don’t be fooled by blue skies. If you hear thunder, lightning is close enough to pose an immediate threat."

Any reputable umpire or league association would advise their personnel comply with that guidance. What guidance have you been given? 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Meh with me and the LL kids 

Thunder aint nothing  I need to see lightning myself. The second I see a lightning bolt. Time OFF THE FIELD..

 

 

heck that was not thunder that was a semi on the highway...

 

You apparently have not read Appendix A in your green book.

[LRZ]

Thunder is indeed "something." It is produced by lightning. You may hear the former, but not see the latter. If you hear thunder, clear the field and start the clock on the mandatory waiting period.

In its guidelines about lightning and thunder, NFHS talks about "When thunder is heard or lightning is seen...."

[The Man in Blue]

14 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

You apparently have not read Appendix A in your green book.

The list of sundown towns to avoid?  

[ArchAngel72]

24 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

You apparently have not read Appendix A in your green book.

I have seen it and if I hear a rumble to me thats nothing

I need to see something in the sky.

 

Where 99% of my fields are there a MUCH taller trees or buildings and or other structures that would attract a  lightning bolt before it thought of reaching something near our fields. 

If I see the sky light up from lightning YES then I shut it down 

Heck even shut a game down for heat lightning one night  It was WAY off in the distance dead center 

I saw it and thought nah thats WAY too far away and that stuff stays in the clouds and does not come down to earth... then I hear Mother#11244423  behind me "ohh did you see that!!"  very loudly.

Yep everyone saw it too

OK stop the game.. everyone grumbled... I would have let it go if she had not said anything 

there was not even any thunder with it..

 

[The Man in Blue]

14 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I have seen it and if I hear a rumble to me thats nothing

I need to see something in the sky.

 

Where 99% of my fields are there a MUCH taller trees or buildings and or other structures that would attract a  lightning bolt before it thought of reaching something near our fields. 

If I see the sky light up from lightning YES then I shut it down 

Heck even shut a game down for heat lightning one night  It was WAY off in the distance dead center 

I saw it and thought nah thats WAY too far away and that stuff stays in the clouds and does not come down to earth... then I hear Mother#11244423  behind me "ohh did you see that!!"  very loudly.

Yep everyone saw it too

OK stop the game.. everyone grumbled... I would have let it go if she had not said anything 

there was not even any thunder with it..

 

 

56 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-heat

The term heat lightning is commonly used to describe lightning from a distant thunderstorm just too far away to see the actual cloud-to-ground flash or to hear the accompanying thunder.

 ... the sound of thunder can only be heard for about 10 miles from a flash.

 

[LMSANS]

I was BU in a JV game on a complex that included the V game and a lacrosse game. I heard thunder, stopped our game. The other games continued.

After 30 minutes of silence, we went back and then heard another clap. Pulled them off again. This time after 5 minutes I started to walk over to the V game. Before I got there, lightening struck a transformer beyond the left field fence.  There were much taller trees all around.
It was comical watching the BU in the V game hightailing it to the dugout. BTW, he was our interpreter.

I don’t play with thunder or lightning.

[BLWizzRanger]

5 hours ago, Jimurray said:

To copy the most important part of @The Man in Blue's post:

"If you can hear thunder, you are in danger. Don’t be fooled by blue skies. If you hear thunder, lightning is close enough to pose an immediate threat."

Any reputable umpire or league association would advise their personnel comply with that guidance. What guidance have you been given? 

To be honest, the guidance is the same as everyone else has.  Hear thunder or see lightning near by get off the field.  But there is a general thought to use common sense based on the weather situation you are in.  I know I am going to get hammered for that statement but its true.  I can imagine there is a difference between how a storm develops in flat lands in Texas, for example, than it would in the mountains.

In fact, Tuesday on the same field, we didn't start a game and had players off of the field because thunder and lightning was in the area.  It took over 30 minutes for the actual storm to happen.  The situation was totally different between the two days.  The risk was more substantial during the Tuesday game where as the game on Sunday only had a very low distant rumble of thunder.

I am not banging on anyone if their level of risk is lower then mine, fine.  Just don't use the excuse that they will have your ass because you allowed a game to still be played.  Nothing is holding the players or parents to stay.  IMHO.

[The Man in Blue]

@BLWizzRanger ... I wish I could agree with your assessment of "using common sense."  Unfortunately, "common sense ain't so common" and that wisdom results in the myths that we often hear, such as "it's just heat lightning" (heat lightning is lightning where you are not seeing the lightning strike, but the light reflecting in the clouds) or "that's not cloud to ground lightning" (ALL lightning is cloud to ground) or "that thunder is far enough away."

A few years ago the Illinois High School Association did attempt to build in some wiggle room to account for geographic features in an area.  I'm not real keen on it, because it is frequently misinterpreted and misapplied by officials.  The added guidance was predominantly added for football, which is played at night and delays can cause the game to go late into the night (with officials traveling significant distances).

From https://www.ihsa.org/documents/sportsMedicine/IHSA-Severe_Weather_Safety_Guidelines.pdf

Develop criteria for suspension and resumption of play:

a. When thunder is heard, or lightning is seen*, the leading edge of the thunderstorm is close enough to strike your location with lightening. Suspend play for at least 30 minutes and vacate the outdoor activity to the previously designated safer location immediately.

b. 30 minutes rule. Once play has been suspended, wait at least 30 minutes after the last thunder is heard or lightning is witnessed* prior to resuming play.

c. Any subsequent thunder or lightning* after the beginning of the 30-minute count will reset the clock and another 30-minute count should begin.

d. When lightning-detection devices or mobile phone apps are available, this technology could be used to assist in making a decision to suspend play if a lightning strike is noted to be within 10 miles of the event location. However, you should never depend on the reliability of these devices and, thus, hearing thunder or seeing lightning* should always take precedence over information from a mobile app or lightning-detection device.

*- At night, under certain atmospheric conditions, lightning flashes may be seen from distant storms. In these cases, it may be safe to continue an event. If no thunder can be heard and the flashes are low on the horizon, the storm may not pose a threat. Independently verified lightning detection information would help eliminate any uncertainty.

[BLarson]

12 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

d. When lightning-detection devices or mobile phone apps are available, this technology could be used to assist in making a decision to suspend play if a lightning strike is noted to be within 10 miles of the event location. However, you should never depend on the reliability of these devices and, thus, hearing thunder or seeing lightning* should always take precedence over information from a mobile app or lightning-detection device.

 

In our area a lot of the organizations/teams/coaches/parent use an app that tracks lightning strikes and I believe we use 7 miles (could be 10).   During non-tournament games and a storm/thunder/lightning happens I get with the coaches as we're the only ones around...during tournaments usually the director dictates what we do (if it's not obvious to everyone)

[mark38090]

I went to a funeral of a 10yo killed by lightning at the field. The game was already called and the players were losing the field. This kid and his dad were walking thru the gate at the dugout when lightning struck the right field fence, traveling down the fence and killing this child.

This was way before lightning apps and the technology we have these days. I have 2 apps on my phone that give lightning alerts, if anything is within 12 miles I send them off the field until there's no more lighting for 30 minutes. 

It's no joke! 

[Mudisfun]

Living in Southern California, lightening where I am is a fairly rare occasion. The few times I have seen it while a game was in progress, I shut the game down. Most the time here, if you see lightening, it is not 'sheet' but bolts, and when I see those cracking across the sky, everyone else is also seeing it crack across the sky. Have never had anyone complain when we called or suspended those few games.

[scrounge]

On 6/27/2022 at 3:30 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

Meh with me and the LL kids 

Thunder aint nothing  I need to see lightning myself. The second I see a lightning bolt. Time OFF THE FIELD..

 

 

heck that was not thunder that was a semi on the highway...

 

What exactly do you think caused the thunder? It's not God bowling.

 

[ArchAngel72]

1 hour ago, scrounge said:

What exactly do you think caused the thunder? It's not God bowling.

 

All of you boohooing about this please tell me when the last time you actually saw anyone get hit by lightning. I have not and as far as I am concerned if either of the coaches say "WOW hold up I heard a rumble of thunder we need to stop"   Guess what I would.  But if no one says anything about a few rumbles that are not even in sight yet I am not saying boo about it.  If I see a flash in the sky yep game stops and timer starts.  I have even stopped when I did not see it but a coach said he saw one. 

I mean seriously everyone's field layouts and lifetime experiences are theirs but mine are mine.  

PS there is a difference between a rumble and a crack. if I hear a crack I am damn well running for the car.. 

 

[kylehutson]

A couple of years ago, I was working a tourney where the field I was on was quite a ways away from the complex where most of the games were being played. We're somewhere around halfway through when I see lightning. I send everyone off the field to wait it out. I'm sitting in the car with my partner as he calls the TD and puts it on speaker.

TD: My app isn't showing any lightning. I'll back you up either way, but do you think it's possible to get them back out to finish the game?

*crack* *BOOM*

Partner: Nope

[The Man in Blue]

On 6/28/2022 at 1:25 PM, BLarson said:

In our area a lot of the organizations/teams/coaches/parent use an app that tracks lightning strikes and I believe we use 7 miles (could be 10).   During non-tournament games and a storm/thunder/lightning happens I get with the coaches as we're the only ones around...during tournaments usually the director dictates what we do (if it's not obvious to everyone)

For anybody who is using an app on your phone ... please do not rely solely on this method.  Use it as justification to get off the field; NEVER use it as justification to stay on the field.

First, lightning DETECTION systems and lightning PREDICTION systems are very different things.  Know what your facility is using and know that it is plugged in, turned on, and working!  Detection tells you it already happened.  Prediction systems actually monitor the local atmospheric conditions.  Think tornado watch versus tornado warning.

Second, your phone is not a lightning detection device.  An app is not a lightning detection device.  These are communication devices that are relaying data from another source.  Do not let a tournament or facility director hold up their phone and tell you to go back out on the field when you see lightning or hear thunder.

Third, the data you are receiving is delayed.  Most of the apps are pulling data from the National Weather Service or the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.  There is a lag in them receiving data, processing and posting data ... THEN your app's service has to pull the data, enter it into the app to disseminate, and then the data has to reach you.  Add in any lag you may have on your data plan, and the information you are receiving can be outdated very quickly.

Finally, lightning can strike 15 miles away from the frontal edge of the storm.  No matter how fast or how good your phone is, it will NEVER tell you before danger happens.

 

[The Man in Blue]

10 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

All of you boohooing about this please tell me when the last time you actually saw anyone get hit by lightning. I have not and as far as I am concerned if either of the coaches say "WOW hold up I heard a rumble of thunder we need to stop"   Guess what I would.  But if no one says anything about a few rumbles that are not even in sight yet I am not saying boo about it.  If I see a flash in the sky yep game stops and timer starts.  I have even stopped when I did not see it but a coach said he saw one. 

I mean seriously everyone's field layouts and lifetime experiences are theirs but mine are mine.  

PS there is a difference between a rumble and a crack. if I hear a crack I am damn well running for the car.. 

 

I've never seen it and I hope I never do.  I know two people who have been struck by lightning.  One was lucky and escaped harm, the other suffered severe burn injuries with lasting effects to his cognitive abilities. 

February 2020 study: https://www.weather.gov/media/safety/Analysis06-19.pdf

A Detailed Analysis of Lightning Deaths in the United States from 2006 through 2019

John S. Jensenius, Jr. Lightning Safety Specialist National Lightning Safety Council February 2020

Executive Summary: From 2006 through 2019, 418 people were struck and killed by lightning in the United States. Almost two thirds of the deaths occurred to people who had been enjoying outdoor leisure activities. The common belief that golfers are responsible for the greatest number of lightning deaths was shown to be a myth. During this 14-year period fishermen accounted for four times as many fatalities as golfers, while beach activities and camping each accounted for about twice as many deaths as golf. From 2006 to 2019, there were 40 fishing deaths, 25 beach deaths, 20 camping deaths, and 18 boating deaths. Of the sports activities, soccer saw the greatest number of deaths with 12, as compared to golf with 10. Around the home, yard work (including mowing the lawn) accounted for 18 fatalities. For work-related activities, ranching/farming topped the list with 19 deaths.

 

 

May 2021

https://nypost.com/2021/05/12/9-year-old-boy-killed-by-lightning-while-playing-soccer/

9-year-old boy killed by lightning while playing soccer

A 9-year-old boy died after being struck by lightning while playing soccer in England, police and team officials said.

Jordan Banks, of Blackpool, died Tuesday at a hospital following the lightning strike at a field in his hometown, police said in a statement.

 

August 2020

https://people.com/human-interest/10-children-killed-4-injured-lightning-strikes-soccer-field-uganda/

10 Children Killed, 4 Injured After Lightning Strikes Soccer Field in Uganda

An evening spent playing soccer took a tragic turn for a group of children in Uganda after a bolt of lightning struck the field, killing 10 and injuring four others.

The fatal incident occurred on Thursday evening around 6 p.m. at a soccer field near the Odramacaku trading center in Arua City, Uganda Police Force spokesperson Angucia Josephine announced in a statement.

It started to rain as the children, ranging in age from 9 to 16, were playing, and they took shelter in "a grass-thatched structure" next to the field, Josephine said.

While inside the structure, 14 of the children were struck by lightning — 10 of whom did not survive, according to authorities.

 

July 2008 

https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=5418220&page=1

10 Struck by Lightning at Soccer Game

On average, 62 Americans are fatally struck every year. Find out how to be safe.

July 21, 2008 — -- It may seem as if some Zeus-like creature is hurling real thunderbolts these days. At least 17 people have been struck by lightning so far this month, and seven of those people have died.

[ArchAngel72]

Yep  Sorry to hear about those 2 folks.  Thank you for those article links.

 

Seems fishing is far more dangerous than I thought.  As is Soccer we should ban that sport.  Between the flops and the crazy fans the lightning strikes should be enough... /sarcasm off.

Glad I do not ref soccer. Eesh

 

Edit:  working out the stats from that 1st report I figure the # was 5 for baseball. Over the time of that report 13 years. 

 

[Kevin_K]

21 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

All of you boohooing about this please tell me when the last time you actually saw anyone get hit by lightning. I have not and as far as I am concerned if either of the coaches say "WOW hold up I heard a rumble of thunder we need to stop"   Guess what I would.  But if no one says anything about a few rumbles that are not even in sight yet I am not saying boo about it.  If I see a flash in the sky yep game stops and timer starts.  I have even stopped when I did not see it but a coach said he saw one. 

I mean seriously everyone's field layouts and lifetime experiences are theirs but mine are mine.  

PS there is a difference between a rumble and a crack. if I hear a crack I am damn well running for the car.. 

 

I have never seen anyone eaten by a grizzly bear, but I won't wear a pork chop necklace in bear country. I have never seen anyone attacked by a shark, but I wouldn't jump into a chum slick. I have never seen anyone hit by a train, but I wouldn't sleep on the tracks. I have seen people hit by lightning. I don't want to see it again.

I think there is an expression that mentions a correlation between an ounce of prevention and a pound of cure. 

You can make all the proclamations you wish, but I would make sure to check your umbrella insurance policy that protects you and your family's financial well being for clauses about willful disregard for standards of behavior. I would be willing to bet that your officiating coverage would not cover for such disregard on lightning and/or thunder.

My .02. YMMV

[ArchAngel72]

I am not saying we do not need to be diligent about lightning.

 

However let me point out the stats that TMiB posted 

418 people from 06 thru 19 , I correct myself from prior post, 14 years of that study found 5 baseball players were killed in the US from lightning strikes.  That's a tick over 1% from the study and 1 player every 2.8 years.  Think about HOW much baseball is being played in the US at all levels.  The odds of it happening are unreal low. Also ball players probably die from all the other possible things like heat stroke, seizures, heart disease, etc.  about as much.

I am not saying it cannot happen either. 

But I get up every morning and risk my life putting my first foot on the wood floor while wearing socks. One of these days I may slip and fall and not be able to get up. 

Then again God may strike me down tonight while I am out running the bases... 

[BLWizzRanger]

5 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

You can make all the proclamations you wish, but I would make sure to check your umbrella insurance policy that protects you and your family's financial well being for clauses about willful disregard for standards of behavior. I would be willing to bet that your officiating coverage would not cover for such disregard on lightning and/or thunder.

My .02. YMMV

Its this! This is past the argument of stopping the game because of weather.  No one is keeping a coach or parent (or even a kid with maturity) from removing themselves from the field if they think their safety is compromised.  No one.  Even if the umpire removed everyone from the field at first crack of thunder and people got struck walking to their car or nearest shelter, is this the umpire's fault? Are they going to sue the facility for not having lightning proof shelters?  The league for not canceling a game that specific night knowing that a storm is brewing?  These would be a hard argument to make. "Yes, your honor, my kid was outside during a storm and I didn't pull him off because the umpire didn't call the game."

Please find one case where an umpire was sued due to their negligence of removing players late from a field and one of the players/parents got struck by lightning.  I'm serious.  If your risk factor is low and you feel the need to get extra insurance, no one will say anything.  But lets not use your risk factor as a means to call others with a higher one idiots.

[LMSANS]

2 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I am not saying we do not need to be diligent about lightning.

 

However let me point out the stats that TMiB posted 

418 people from 06 thru 19 , I correct myself from prior post, 14 years of that study found 5 baseball players were killed in the US from lightning strikes.  That's a tick over 1% from the study and 1 player every 2.8 years.  Think about HOW much baseball is being played in the US at all levels.  The odds of it happening are unreal low. Also ball players probably die from all the other possible things like heat stroke, seizures, heart disease, etc.  about as much.

I am not saying it cannot happen either. 

But I get up every morning and risk my life putting my first foot on the wood floor while wearing socks. One of these days I may slip and fall and not be able to get up. 

Then again God may strike me down tonight while I am out running the bases... 

You be you.

I will follow the official guidelines I am provided and officiate accordingly.