Runners lane interference

[Gfoley4]

im sure someone will find a better link. Curious if there would ever be a case where this is called obstruction instead of RLI. 

[Jimurray]

9 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

im sure someone will find a better link. Curious if there would ever be a case where this is called obstruction instead of RLI. 

We don't need a better link.

[ErichKeane]

Pitcher definitely tried to throw around the runner, who was out of the Runners Lane, RLI to me pretty clearly (though my knowledge of NCAA rules is nil) in OBR/NFHS. 

As far as OBS, I don't see the fielder in any way preventing the runner from getting to the base, nor advancing.  IF he had been in the runners lane, and the collision had happened while he was attempting to go to 2nd (or, even the fielder causing him to not make it to 1B), I could see OBS, but this play was far from it.

[zoops]

I'll agree that this is RLI according to the rulebook.  I'll add this video that was put out by Tom Hiler in 2016 which might muddy the waters. Another reason I'd like to see NCAA put out a manual with all of these interps.

 

 

[agdz59]

How the hell do you call the runner safe?

[ArchAngel72]

Yep RLI  once he stepped inside the fair area. He's as good as done.  RLI no OBS that I saw at all.

 

Looked to me like he knew he was doing it too

[maven]

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Yep RLI  once he stepped inside the fair area. He's as good as done.  RLI no OBS that I saw at all.

That's simplistic: there are THREE conditions for RLI, not one.

It's not clear to me that this play meets all three. I doubt, for example, that this gets called in pro ball (whose rule might be different from NCAA's).

[ErichKeane]

2 minutes ago, maven said:

That's simplistic: there are THREE conditions for RLI, not one.

It's not clear to me that this play meets all three. I doubt, for example, that this gets called in pro ball (whose rule might be different from NCAA's).

What are the 3?

The ones I can think of are:
1- B/R is out of the runners lane on their way to 1st.
2- B/R interferes/hinders/etc with a fielding attempt or throw to 1B

I DO know that Non-NFHS has a 'was the throw good enough to get him' test, but is that your 3rd?

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, maven said:

That's simplistic: there are THREE conditions for RLI, not one.

It's not clear to me that this play meets all three. I doubt, for example, that this gets called in pro ball (whose rule might be different from NCAA's).

 

16 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

What are the 3?

The ones I can think of are:
1- B/R is out of the runners lane on their way to 1st.
2- B/R interferes/hinders/etc with a fielding attempt or throw to 1B

I DO know that Non-NFHS has a 'was the throw good enough to get him' test, but is that your 3rd?

This makes NCAA different than OBR: "Note 1: If the batter-runner is running illegally to first base and his being outside the lane alters the throw of a fielder,"

[ErichKeane]

4 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

 

This makes NCAA different than OBR: "Note 1: If the batter-runner is running illegally to first base and his being outside the lane alters the throw of a fielder,"

Ah, I should have inverted that sentence, I know NFHS doesn't have a 'quality of throw' test, but OBR does.  I should have said I have no idea about NCAA.

[agdz59]

36 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

 

This makes NCAA different than OBR: "Note 1: If the batter-runner is running illegally to first base and his being outside the lane alters the throw of a fielder,"

And it looks to me like he altered his throw over the runner. 

[Velho]

The complete cite for reference:

NCAA Rule 7 / Batting: When Batter or Batter-Runner Is Out

SECTION 11 A batter is out when:

•p. In running the last half of the distance from home plate to first base while the ball is being fielded to first base, the batter-runner runs outside the 3-foot restraining line or inside the foul line and, in so doing, interferes with the fielder taking the throw at first base, except that the batter may go outside these lines to avoid a fielder attempting to field a batted ball;

Note 1: If the batter-runner is running illegally to first base and his being outside the lane alters the throw of a fielder, hinders or alters a fielder’s opportunity to field the throw, or the batter-runner is hit by the throw that has been made in an attempt to make a play, it shall be called interference and the batter-runner is to be called out. Exception—The batter-runner is permitted to exit the three-foot running lane by means of a step, stride, reach or slide in the immediate vicinity of first base and for the sole purpose of touching first or attempting to avoid a tag. He may exit the running lane on his last stride or step if he has been running legally within the running lane up to that point.
Note 2: The batter-runner is considered outside this 3-foot lane if either foot is outside either line.
Note 3: On a tag play between home plate and first base, a batter-runner may retreat toward home plate to evade a tag, but shall be declared out after touching or passing home plate, or leaving the base line. The ball remains live. Obstruction on a batter-runner retreating toward home plate must be intentional. 

[Velho]

So to even consider RLI we have the below?

OBR & LL - quality throw required

NFHS - no throw required a throw of any quality required [corrected]

NCAA - a throw of any quality required

Edited June 7, 2022 by Velho
Corrected given subsequent discussion

[ArchAngel72]

2 minutes ago, Velho said:

So to even consider RLI we have the below?

OBR & LL - quality throw required

NFHS - no throw required

NCAA - a throw of any quality required

hmm Odd in LL At the training in Bristol we were told if they do not throw it you can still call it because a catcher may not want to hurt the runner by throwing it and hitting them. They said do not blame the catcher for that non throw.

Least that is what I recall.  when I also hear of coaches telling catchers if they are out of the lane drill them in the back.

 

[ErichKeane]

13 minutes ago, Velho said:

So to even consider RLI we have the below?

OBR & LL - quality throw required

NFHS - no throw required

NCAA - a throw of any quality required

Hmm... NFHS rule is: (8-4-1(g))

The batter-runner is out when

(g) he runs outside the three-foot running lane (last half of the distance from home plate to first base) while the ball is being fielded or thrown to first base.

1. This infraction is ignored if it is to avoid a fielder who is attempting to field the batted ball or if the act does not interfere with a fielder or a throw.
2. The batter runner is considered outside the running lane lines if either foot is outside either line.

 

I THINK a throw is required here due to the first sentence (though of course, 'fielded to first base' also counts, but we'll discount that case for now). 

[Velho]

7 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

11 minutes ago, Velho said:

So to even consider RLI we have the below?

OBR & LL - quality throw required

NFHS - no throw required

NCAA - a throw of any quality required

hmm Odd in LL At the training in Bristol we were told if they do not throw it you can still call it because a catcher may not want to hurt the runner by throwing it and hitting them. They said do not blame the catcher for that non throw.

Obviously not going to argue what you were told (nor that it makes sense) but here is the LL 2021 RIM for reference.

Teams may be hesitant to make the throw since the penalty for airmailing it is high and they're not sure the RLI call will be made.

 

11 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

when I also hear of coaches telling catchers if they are out of the lane drill them in the back.

I figured that was part of NFHS not requiring a throw. 12U primary reaction to getting hit in the back will be to cry. High school, well you know...

[ArchAngel72]

1 minute ago, Velho said:

Obviously not going to argue what you were told (nor that it makes sense) but here is the LL 2021 RIM for reference.

Teams may be hesitant to make the throw since the penalty for airmailing it is high and they're not sure the RLI call will be made.

 

I figured that was part of NFHS not requiring a throw. 12U primary reaction to getting hit in the back will be to cry. High school, well you know...

Oh I do not doubt the book nor your reference.  I just find it odd the differences between the book and what they tell you at schools sometimes.

Another one was if the kid freezes and does not move in the box to avoid getting hit send him anyway as kids freeze up and will get plunked that way. The rules 6.08 b 2  The batter makes no attempt to avoid being struck by the ball.   And the references say if its inside then call time  call it a ball and keep the batter at the plate.

/shrug

 

[Jimurray]

43 minutes ago, Velho said:

So to even consider RLI we have the below?

OBR & LL - quality throw required

NFHS - no throw required

NCAA - a throw of any quality required

You need a throw in NFHS:

2010

"SITUATION 7: B1 lays down a bunt that is fielded by F2 in fair territory a few feet in front of home plate. As B1 is 60 feet from home base, he is running outside the running lane with one foot completely in fair ground and not touching the lines of the running lane. F2 fields the ball and (a) attempts to throw to first but throws high into right field as he tries not to hit B1, or (b) does not attempt a throw. RULING: B1 is required to be in the running lane the last 45 feet to first base when the ball is fielded and thrown from an area behind him. In (a), this is interference and B1 is out and the ball is declared dead. In (b), since there was no throw, there is no interference. F2 is not required to hit B1 to demonstrate that B1 is out of the running lane, but a throw must be made for the interference to be declared. (8-4-1g"

and also a quality throw in LL as per their RIM.

[Velho]

21 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

I THINK a throw is required here due to the first sentence (though of course, 'fielded to first base' also counts, but we'll discount that case for now). 

Thanks @ErichKeane. That's why I was confirming. My memory bank had that a fielder clutching but not throwing was "hindering". Fell trap to a myth I guess.

Tip of the hat to @Senor Azul who posted previously:

From the 2016 BRD (section 294, p. 193):

FED Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  After a dropped third strike, when the batter-runner is not in the lane, the catcher’s throw does not have to hit the batter-runner to create interference. But the umpire may not call interference if the catcher does not throw.

[Velho]

3 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

You need a throw in NFHS:

Thanks. I edited my post in case anyone only reads that.

[maven]

3 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

I know NFHS doesn't have a 'quality of throw' test, but OBR does.

FED doesn't use that term, but it does depend on the BR's hindering the fielder taking (or "fielding," whatever that means—right Steve?) the throw at 1B.

This rules out, for example, the no-throw situation. But it also implies that the provision still requires something like a quality throw, which OBR interprets as a throw that has a chance to retire the runner. Late throws, non-throws, clear overthrows—in none of these cases would we rule RLI.

I'm not qualified to have an opinion about the play in the video.

[ErichKeane]

9 minutes ago, maven said:

FED doesn't use that term, but it does depend on the BR's hindering the fielder taking (or "fielding," whatever that means—right Steve?) the throw at 1B.

This rules out, for example, the no-throw situation. But it also implies that the provision still requires something like a quality throw, which OBR interprets as a throw that has a chance to retire the runner. Late throws, non-throws, clear overthrows—in none of these cases would we rule RLI.

I'm not qualified to have an opinion about the play in the video.

Ah, I was told at one point by a local ump-trainer that he was told 'quality of the throw is irrelevant', and intentionally done so since HS kids were being taught to peg the runner if they saw them cross the line.

[agdz59]

2 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

Ah, I was told at one point by a local ump-trainer that he was told 'quality of the throw is irrelevant', and intentionally done so since HS kids were being taught to peg the runner if they saw them cross the line.

I was told the same thing in my training.

[dumbdumb]

is this play ir'able. did they go to ir. if so, with 4-6 umpires on hand, how many get to see the replay and offer their input. who decides the final call if nobody is in agreement. how does that go. what if the vote is even.

also, if you click around the sites this weekend for super regionals you should find the HPU working at a site and also the 2BU.

added 6/11

HPU at Virginia Tech super regional. 2nd BU at East Carolina super regional.

[Vegas_Ump]

Here's another thought.  This one was on ESPN, FaceBook, etc quite a bit.  So I had lots of looks at it.

Is it possible that the BR beat the throw?  Despite his being out of the lane, is it possible that he touched first base before the ball arrived?  If so, could he be ruled safe?  How can he interfere with a play that's over because he beat the throw?  There is no longer a play to interfere with!

Playing Devil's Advocate here, but I saw the same sitch in a World Series game decades ago, and in real-time, I felt the BR beat the play!  The result was a NO-CALL!  I was musing about RLI as I felt all three criteria were there, but by the time the throw made it to first, the BR was on or past the bag!  While I was going apoplectic about RLI not being called, subsequent replays showed that the BR beat the throw.

Just tossing this up, because a close look on this one shows the BR might have beat the throw.

JMO.

Mike

LAs Vegas