Check Swing Ball Four/Strike 3 with Runner "Stealing"

[pl8ump1012]

I saw this situation in one of those MLB ejection compilation videos. I didn't think to ask this question here until later, so I don't still have the video link - sorry. 

Since the video was MLB, we're talking OBR; I don't think other rule sets would have different outcomes, but would be interested in NFHS if there are any differences.

R1, No outs, 3-2 count on the batter.

R1 breaks for second on the pitch. Batter checks his swing, and PU calls the pitch a ball. Because that's ball 4, U2 does not signal safe/out on the "steal" (read: R1's advance on the base on balls), though if it WAS a steal attempt, R1 clearly would have been out on F2's/F4's throw/tag.

Defense then appeals the check swing, and U1 signals that the batter did attempt to swing. The base on balls becomes a strikeout, but now the defense is angry that R1 should have been out on the steal attempt.

 

Should U2 have signaled safe/out on the steal/base on balls IN CASE the checked swing was ultimately called a strike, or was he right to make no call? My inclination is that he correctly made no call. R1 could have slowed down when PU called the pitch a ball (he didn't, but he could have), and that would have put him at an unfair disadvantage on the play at 2B in the case that the pitch's call was reversed. 

[maven]

37 minutes ago, pl8ump1012 said:

Should U2 have signaled safe/out on the steal/base on balls IN CASE the checked swing was ultimately called a strike, or was he right to make no call? My inclination is that he correctly made no call.

You're right.

38 minutes ago, pl8ump1012 said:

R1 could have slowed down when PU called the pitch a ball (he didn't, but he could have), and that would have put him at an unfair disadvantage on the play at 2B in the case that the pitch's call was reversed.

That would be poor base-running by R1, because the disadvantage is self-inflicted, and thereby NOT unfair.

By rule, when the umpires change a judgment call, they may rectify any disadvantage a team incurs thereby, including change a safe to an out. So they could rule R1 out on the steal attempt once the B is called out on strikes (thereby nullifying the awarded bases). [I don't know what happened in the video or specific pro guidance about doing this.]

This provision exists in all codes.

[noumpere]

Did F4 tag R1 before R1 reached the base?  If so, then once the call on the batter is changed to a strike, R1 is out, in OBR.

If F4 *could have* tagged R1, but chose not to, well, that's on him and the play stands.

This is from OBR:

Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base
umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of
a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in
jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher
must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is
reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the
plate umpire.
The ball is in play on appeal on a half swing.

[Jimurray]

13 minutes ago, maven said:

You're right.

That would be poor base-running by R1, because the disadvantage is self-inflicted, and thereby NOT unfair.

By rule, when the umpires change a judgment call, they may rectify any disadvantage a team incurs thereby, including change a safe to an out. So they could rule R1 out on the steal attempt once the B is called out on strikes (thereby nullifying the awarded bases). [I don't know what happened in the video or specific pro guidance about doing this.]

This provision exists in all codes.

I missread your post so I'm crossing out the result of the missread and just leaving the cite.

I don't think that's the case in OBR, from 8.02(c) Comment: "Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw."

[SH0102]

I can not speak for OBR or 4-man, but I have always been taught that if there is any doubt on a half-swing (check-swing) on what could be strike-3, go for help immediately so everyone knows what is happening.

For me, if ball is in dirt or a secondary play is ensuing, I am going for help if there is any doubt, I am not waiting until later when they ask me to appeal (and in NCAA and above, you must seek help when asked) if you rule no-swing.

[noumpere]

31 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

I can not speak for OBR or 4-man, but I have always been taught that if there is any doubt on a half-swing (check-swing) on what could be strike-3, go for help immediately so everyone knows what is happening.

For me, if ball is in dirt or a secondary play is ensuing, I am going for help if there is any doubt, I am not waiting until later when they ask me to appeal (and in NCAA and above, you must seek help when asked) if you rule no-swing.

Of course -- and, under some advanced mechanics, U1 should volunteer the information even if not asked -- and if U1 has a swing.

That's not the OPs question, though, and not all do it, and even if it is done, by the time it gets registered, the play (or no play) at second might have happened.

[maven]

34 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

I can not speak for OBR or 4-man, but I have always been taught that if there is any doubt on a half-swing (check-swing) on what could be strike-3, go for help immediately so everyone knows what is happening.

This mechanic is more for D3K than a steal of 2B. It's going to be one or the other, so I wouldn't use it on a steal of 2B (which might be standard).

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 80, p. 74):

Play 64-80:  R2 stealing, 1 out, 3-2 count. PU calls the pitch ball four on a half-swing. BR starts across home plate toward first. The catcher attempts to throw out R2 at third and hits BR while he is out of the box. The ball goes into left field and the runner scores. The defense then asks for an appeal on the half-swing, and the base umpire reverses the call: It’s now a swing for strike three. Ruling:  In FED, because the offense was put at a disadvantage, the UIC may change the call though he is not obligated to do so. A good “compromise” would be to return R2 to second and leave BR out. In NCAA/OBR, BR (strike 3) and R2 (BR’s interference) are both out.

Note:  I would not have changed from “ball four” to “strike three:” too much action, too long between calls; the plate umpire was closer to the swing.

I could not find any rules book or any rules interpretation manual that recommends this mechanic should be used only an UK3—only here at U-E.

[maven]

19 hours ago, maven said:

This mechanic is more for D3K than a steal of 2B. It's going to be one or the other, so I wouldn't use it on a steal of 2B (which might be standard).

I guess I have to be more specific about the antecedent of "this mechanic": I mean the advanced mechanic by which BU can give PU unsolicited info regarding whether it was a swing. THIS mechanic, AFAIK, is for D3K, where it can be of use to the BR who is still in the plate area. PU changing his ruling at that time affords both teams a fair opportunity to make a play.

In contrast, by the time PU can change his call on a steal, the play at the base is likely already made. So the only option would be to rule on the play.

I do NOT mean that a generic appeal of a check swing is only for D3K. That mechanic is available to PU on every check swing.

[beerguy55]

On 2/23/2022 at 8:40 AM, SH0102 said:

I can not speak for OBR or 4-man, but I have always been taught that if there is any doubt on a half-swing (check-swing) on what could be strike-3, go for help immediately so everyone knows what is happening.

For me, if ball is in dirt or a secondary play is ensuing, I am going for help if there is any doubt, I am not waiting until later when they ask me to appeal (and in NCAA and above, you must seek help when asked) if you rule no-swing.

Take strike three out of the mix...the OP was about a steal with three balls.  The fact that there are two strikes is just a wrinkle.   What if the count was 3-1 and batter checked his swing?  Situation isn't really any different.

It's all moot during a steal.

If the baserunner lets up because they think it's ball four, that's on them...it's bad practice.  If F2 doesn't throw...or F4/F6 don't make a tag because they think it was ball four, that's on them...it's bad practice.  Even in real time, if the BU immediately  says "yes, he went", unsolicited, if either the offensive player or defensive player have made the (poor) decision to assume the walk there's not enough time for those players to react and turn back on what they shouldn't have turned off in the first place....and if everyone's playing it out, as they should, then the play ends, safe or out, as it should.

And with less than two out, and less than two strikes, it's moot for the batter too.

I'm sure it's good habits and practice, but it's not going to make any difference as far as the stealing runner is concerned....he's either hustling to the bag or he isn't, and the defense is either following through on the play or they aren't.   Any player assuming it was ball four in this scenario is playing with fire, and it's on them, not the umpire.

[umpstu]

17 hours ago, maven said:

I guess I have to be more specific about the antecedent of "this mechanic": I mean the advanced mechanic by which BU can give PU unsolicited info regarding whether it was a swing. THIS mechanic, AFAIK, is for D3K, where it can be of use to the BR who is still in the plate area. PU changing his ruling at that time affords both teams a fair opportunity to make a play.

In contrast, by the time PU can change his call on a steal, the play at the base is likely already made. So the only option would be to rule on the play.

I do NOT mean that a generic appeal of a check swing is only for D3K. That mechanic is available to PU on every check swing.

I have seen U1 volunteer a checked swing decision without being asked on a steal attempt.  But only with 3 or 4 umpires. Never 2 man.

[Mudisfun]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:25 PM, umpstu said:

I have seen U1 volunteer a checked swing decision without being asked on a steal attempt.  But only with 3 or 4 umpires. Never 2 man.

Agreed... your inside, check swing, and R1 stealing. The moment you see F2 coming up to throw, your attention is most likely on the ensuing play, tracking the throw and turning as it passes for the play at the base. I don't think I am also going to have the time or mental acumen to also, at the same time, rule either solicited or unsolicited on the check swing. If you do, there is a good chance you're going to miss the play at 2nd as you're now in the middle of a mechanic.

Now the play at the base with a 3-2 count: if he is safe on the 'steal', great... but if you have him out, I will tell the runner to stay there, turn back to my plate partner and determine what he called, assuming it was not an obvious ball 4. If he has strike 3 with less than 2 outs, then I will rule on the steal, but if it is ball 4, then there was no play unless he was tagged off the base after completing the award.