Game management screw up

[conbo61]

Last night working the plate for a local men's league.  R1, rang up batter on a curve on the outside part of the plate.  He and his manager took umbrage with the call.  No problem.

Next batter singles and I hear from the bench, "That was a run.  That one is on you!" Still no issues. A couple of more similar comments are sent (what I believe to be) my way.  One more single and bases are loaded and I hear another comment about costing a run and I turn to the dugout "Enough! This is your warning!!"

To my horror, there is only one guy in the dugout (rest are all behind it) and I am confident he was not the player barking and he has this deer in the headlights look.  Manager comes down from the 3rd base coaching box and asks me who I am "on" and I cannot honestly tell him a specific player. Sheepishly I tell him "Whoever is barking." Fortunately he did not make it more of an issue and returned to the coach's box.  I was still embarrassed that I could not answer more definitively,

When the "dugout" player came to the plate he said to me "it wasn't me blue."  I said I didn't think so and that I wasn't directing it at him.  All was good there.

One mistake I made was not looking over during some of the initial comments solely to get an idea of WHO was saying them.  In that case I would have had a better idea as to who to direct the warning at.

Thoughts? Advice?

Thank you.

[LRZ]

If you don't know who is barking, point to one end of the dugout/bench or the other and warn them, "I'm starting at that end..." It's then up to the HC/manager to control his players.

Perky Twilight League?

[The Man in Blue]

I actually like your brief conversation with the kid coming up to bat!  I might have added a little bit at the end to soften it, such as "I'm not going to ask you who it was, but I'd appreciate it if you could help out by trying to calm him down."

As for not seeing/knowing specifically who made the comment, I don't see that as an issue.  Sure, we all would like to be spot on, but it isn't always possible.  In that case, I would have a conversation with the coach.  If the coach is being unreasonable, you run the risk that it may fuel the fire; if he is level-headed and if you approach the situation calmly, the coach should understand.  "Hey coach, your guys need to cool it.  I'm not sure who it is, so this is a warning for your team.  If it continues and I cannot tell who it is, it may be you that takes the fall."

If it comes time to eject (and if you are warning you damned-well be ready to eject), I would rather go with the coach who didn't control his team after being instructed than accidentally punishing the wrong kid by removing him from the game. 

[maven]

2 hours ago, conbo61 said:

One mistake I made was not looking over during some of the initial comments solely to get an idea of WHO was saying them.  In that case I would have had a better idea as to who to direct the warning at.

Thoughts? Advice?

When you've decided to act, make your first move a "stare" into the dugout. This notifies them that you've heard their message, which can be a clue to the clued-in to STFU.

It also provides an opportunity to see which dog is barking.

[MadMax]

45 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

As for not seeing/knowing specifically who made the comment, I don't see that as an issue.  Sure, we all would like to be spot on, but it isn't always possible.  In that case, I would have a conversation with the coach.  If the coach is being unreasonable, you run the risk that it may fuel the fire; if he is level-headed and if you approach the situation calmly, the coach should understand.  "Hey coach, your guys need to cool it.  I'm not sure who it is, so this is a warning for your team.  If it continues and I cannot tell who it is, it may be you that takes the fall."

If it comes time to eject (and if you are warning you damned-well be ready to eject), I would rather go with the coach who didn't control his team after being instructed than accidentally punishing the wrong kid by removing him from the game. 

Here’s the one problem with your stated approach… and it would be effective for amateurs < 18 years old, except: 

1 hour ago, conbo61 said:

Last night working the plate for a local men's league.

Entirely different fish bowl, entirely different context. 

Far more often than not, these teams have captains rather than coaches. Actually, it’s these adult leagues that return back to the origins of the term “player-manager” in professional baseball. These PMs or captains will likely (but not always) report to the plate meeting and deliver the lineup card. I just roll my eyes and shake my head when PU partners of mine stride to the plate meeting and bellow “Coaches!!” and then proceed to tell these guys who can and how to “approach an (the calling) umpire” to dispute a call. 

These are adults. They are not babysitters. They are not beholden to or responsible for the behavior of their teammates. And if you/we expect them to, you’ll just increase resistance and strife. Sure, it might be effective to converse with the captain or PM, but depending on how you’re perceived by the team, collectively, it might get nowhere. 

One tool in your favor is time. Every adult/men’s league I’ve worked (and there’s been many) has a time limit, typically 3 hours. If you’re working for or have been assigned by the right sort of assigner, you’re being paid indirectly (as in, not by the teams themselves), or you’re paid Cash at Plate Meeting; this – having your payment in hand or “in the bank” – enables you to use time in your favor and against the culprit. Something along the lines of holding the game up until the disruption ends is remarkably effective. I and my colleagues have even said something to the next/current batter, or the captain/PM such as, “The game really can’t continue until that (exclamations) ends,” and wouldn’t you know it, the guy says, “Hey! Dudes! I wanna bat here! Keep it down!”. 

I also have such a good rapport with catchers that I’ll actually look towards them on the bench, or if they’re coming out for warmups as the inning turns, I’ll say something like, “Jeff, I’m calling the same pitch for your guy (pitcher),” to which Jeff will reply, “I know, I’ll talk to him (the exclaiming culprit).” 

In these leagues, the more formally rigid you project, the more these guys resist. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

@Gilat Close Call Sports covered this recently...I'll post a link later but, basically under OBR there is a provision for clearing the bench in the event of "bench jockeying" when the crew can't tell who specifically the jockey is. I don't know that I have ever seen a crew clear the bench, thus ending the game, but it would be a powerful citation to make when talking to the manager.

As for men's games in general, I had a partner tell me several years ago, "These are grown men. We give them more slack." And surprise, I find myself in a lot of preventable jackpots because I gave them slack.

Recently, I've tightened things up when it comes to static, bench jockeying and other disrespectful behaviors and or words. No ejections this year but, I am nipping everything now...first time...I am nipping it.

And surprise, I'm getting into fewer jackpots now. I don't like administering a baseball game this way because grown men should indeed be allowed to be grown men. But, the collected data at least for my work radius shows...OBR, call it tighter and fewer problems.

~Dawg

[Catch18]

accidentally punishing the wrong kid by removing him from the game. 

He said men’s league.


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[LRZ]

16 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

a crew clear the bench, thus ending the game

If I recall correctly, this is not correct. The manager can recall players from the clubhouse to substitute into the game.

[Catch18]

Next batter singles and I hear from the bench, "That was a run.  That one is on you!" Still no issues.

1. Yes it is. Don’t take those direct shots.
2. I can’t remember who quipped this one on UE a few weeks ago - “yeah, keep it up and you won’t be here to see number 2.”


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[SH0102]

Men’s league does not mean we take verbal abuse we shouldn’t.  No way that should have been said, nor allowed.

issue a dugout warning, thus, the next offender is ejected, and if you don’t know who it is, the HC coach goes.

I don’t care if it’s a player-manager or not, good, now they lost a manager and a player, the way it should be when behavior isn’t controlled.

men’s league does not mean they get a pass to be jacka**es.  I have umpired college, college summer ball; and mlb draft league and not gotten any of the crap he got at some local league in the OP (Roy Hobbs ?). Bc they don’t have a “true” manager we can’t expect anyone to control team behavior unless we can stare in and identify the specific individual ? No way

edit: to clarify, I’m not saying adult men isn’t different than kids. Im more lax on things like profanity, more receptive to questions about what I had when I called something they clearly didn’t agree with, etc.  but you can’t accuse me of cheating, say I cost you runs, draw lines in the dirt, etc, any more than a kid can, and I’m not going to shy away from handling business bc they don’t have a “babysitter” coach

[LRZ]

3 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

unless we can stare in and identify the specific individual

If I understand maven's point, it is "stare" = "acknowledge" on the I-A-W-E scale,  not "identify."

[SH0102]

4 minutes ago, LRZ said:

If I understand maven's point, it is "stare" = "acknowledge" on the I-A-W-E scale,  not "identify."

Correct, I wasn’t disputing Maven at all.  There was a post about not involving the coach Bc most men’s leagues don’t have a true coach, they have a player manager, who isn’t there to babysit his players. It was implied that if you can’t identify the culprit, you can’t, or shouldn’t, eject the coach as you otherwise would after a dugout warning

[The Man in Blue]

I did miss the fact that it was a men’s game.  That may change my approach, but not my method.

They may legally be adults, but they are playing a kid’s game and acting like children so that is how I will treat them.

[MadMax]

25 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

There was a post about not involving the coach Bc most men’s leagues don’t have a true coach, they have a player manager, who isn’t there to babysit his players.

Wasn’t just “a post”, it was my post; and, true, the PM isn’t there to babysit his players, nor is he responsible for his players’ behavior. This isn’t high school ball, wherein we restrict the HC to the dugout because his player is wearing jewelry (thereby violating the “properly & legally equipped” question, and technically lying to you), or by ejecting the last/only coach, the game is forfeit. We are so quick to point out that Adult/Men’s league ain’t the MLB, but do note: when was the last time that a MLB Umpire tossed a Manager because of the behavior / exclamations of a (unidentifiable) player?? 

Make sure you listen to the entire thing. Hamari addresses “Adrian” (Beltre) by name, and tosses him after giving him more than enough rope. Banister acts incredulous that Hamari could identify one guy specifically, and had even thought that Hamari had tossed one of the assistant coaches, initially. Do note, also, that neither Hamari nor Kulpa (CC) are warning or cautioning Banister. Kulpa only ejects Banister once Banister hasn’t been prompt enough in directing Beltre to the clubhouse. 

My applicable point here is address the source of the problem directly. Granted, in the OP, the majority of the team was being chicken-s#!t by hiding and sniping from behind the dugout, where lots of teams will park all their gear, and sneak cigarettes or alcohol, or play graba$$ with their WAGs. But do the math! If you just struck out the previous batter, and you hear a steady stream of expletives and exclamations, it’s probably coming from that same batter. If you have no other channel available than the nearest player, or the player-manager standing in the BC box, then perhaps say, “If he (the unnamed source) doesn’t stop that, I’ll have to eject him.” 

I’m not giving these adult Rec players a free pass to snipe me and verbally walk all over me/us (my partners and colleagues). But, there has to be something to this, considering that I and my colleagues are requested and assigned to some of the more intense and “potentially problematic” games of the Adult Rec League seasons and the cumulative playoffs / World Series events these leagues operate. 

[SH0102]

7 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Wasn’t just “a post”, it was my post; and, true, the PM isn’t there to babysit his players, nor is he responsible for his players’ behavior. This isn’t high school ball, wherein we restrict the HC to the dugout because his player is wearing jewelry (thereby violating the “properly & legally equipped” question, and technically lying to you), or by ejecting the last/only coach, the game is forfeit. We are so quick to point out that Adult/Men’s league ain’t the MLB, but do note: when was the last time that a MLB Umpire tossed a Manager because of the behavior / exclamations of a (unidentifiable) player?? 

Make sure you listen to the entire thing. Hamari addresses “Adrian” (Beltre) by name, and tosses him after giving him more than enough rope. Banister acts incredulous that Hamari could identify one guy specifically, and had even thought that Hamari had tossed one of the assistant coaches, initially. Do note, also, that neither Hamari nor Kulpa (CC) are warning or cautioning Banister. Kulpa only ejects Banister once Banister hasn’t been prompt enough in directing Beltre to the clubhouse. 

My applicable point here is address the source of the problem directly. Granted, in the OP, the majority of the team was being chicken-s#!t by hiding and sniping from behind the dugout, where lots of teams will park all their gear, and sneak cigarettes or alcohol, or play graba$$ with their WAGs. But do the math! If you just struck out the previous batter, and you hear a steady stream of expletives and exclamations, it’s probably coming from that same batter. If you have no other channel available than the nearest player, or the player-manager standing in the BC box, then perhaps say, “If he (the unnamed source) doesn’t stop that, I’ll have to eject him.” 

I’m not giving these adult Rec players a free pass to snipe me and verbally walk all over me/us (my partners and colleagues). But, there has to be something to this, considering that I and my colleagues are requested and assigned to some of the more intense and “potentially problematic” games of the Adult Rec League seasons and the cumulative playoffs / World Series events these leagues operate. 

Adult REC leagues…MLB example…yeah, just agree to disagree here.

[Catch18]

Wasn’t just “a post”, it was my post;

Well, $h1t, excuse us….next time we’ll genuflect.



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[The Man in Blue]

[SeeingEyeDog]

6 hours ago, LRZ said:

If I recall correctly, this is not correct. The manager can recall players from the clubhouse to substitute into the game.

Yes, yes, yes...you are absolutely correct here, El Arr Zee. It doesn't end the game. For an MLB game, they must all leave the dugout, remain in the locker room and then enter and leave the field of play from there.

So, at your garden variety HS field (where most men's league game are played)...what does a team bench clear under OBR look like? They have to be out of sight and sound of the field, gather at that distance and then enter and leave the field of play from there?

~Dawg 

[conbo61]

Thank you all for your feedback.

This men's league does have dedicated managers.  Some are P/Ms but they M more than they P.  (I heard that differently in my head)  They make take an at-bat late in the game just to play.

To Max's point, in this league there is no time limit, nor a mercy rule.  The games are 7 innings and the longest game I have had this season for this league is 1:50.  The leagues consists of college players all the way to guys in their 40s.  And the guys in their 40s are no slouches.  In fact the one catcher last night played minor league ball and his manager was Gary Gaetti.  Many of them have been in the league since they were in college.  Some of the managers used to umpire as well, so they know the mechanics and where an umpire should be.

One of the players last night is the AD at our local high school and I remember him as the drum major when my oldest was in the band 20 years ago.  On the same team is a kid I coached in Pee-Wee league basketball with my youngest about 14 years ago.

I also try to cultivate a good rapport with the catchers.  I am kicking myself that I didn't think to try an engage their catcher to help calm things down.  There was an opportunity.

Once again, thank you all for the input. Lots of ways to approach this.  My task is to know how I am going to handle it from beginning to end before I open my yap.

[HokieUmp]

On 7/17/2021 at 1:08 PM, MadMax said:

I just roll my eyes and shake my head when PU partners of mine stride to the plate meeting and bellow “Coaches!!” and then proceed to tell these guys who can and how to “approach an (the calling) umpire” to dispute a call. 

For the blue part:  I'll *still* holler "Coaches!" because that gets me two dudes up to the plate.  Are they coaches?  Are they managers?  Are they babysitters?  Who gives a SH*#?  For MY time and money, they're two dudes who can speak to the few issues we need to talk about at a plate meeting - time/innings, ruleset, paying my ass, ground rules.

Speaking of that plate meeting, for the green part:  I hate, hate, HATE that part of a plate meeting - and it only happens if a partner decides to give that speech, 'cause *I* won't.  They should know;  if they DON'T know, they'll find out in a hurry when the time comes.  Even when it's a kid's house league, and it's dads doing the coaching, I refuse to give that talk.

[mac266]

On 7/17/2021 at 10:03 AM, The Man in Blue said:

I might have added a little bit at the end to soften it, such as "I'm not going to ask you who it was, but I'd appreciate it if you could help out by trying to calm him down.

Whelp...there's another tool for my toolbox!  

[Mudisfun]

On 7/19/2021 at 9:54 AM, HokieUmp said:

 

Speaking of that plate meeting, for the green part:  I hate, hate, HATE that part of a plate meeting - and it only happens if a partner decides to give that speech, 'cause *I* won't.  

I swear it took me a minute to realize you were referencing something you highlighted. At first, I was asking myself 'self, why is he reluctant to talk about and or collect his cash game fee!' That's normally my favorite part of the game.

 

[catsbackr]

"Coach, you need to get control of your dugout.  If you can't or won't, I will.  That's your warning!"

 

[ousafe]

On 7/17/2021 at 2:31 PM, MadMax said:

...high school ball, wherein we restrict the HC to the dugout because his player is wearing jewelry (thereby violating the “properly & legally equipped” question, and technically lying to you)...

@MadMax just talked to a colleague who did exactly what you describe above, and it went up the chain (in Washington State) to WIAA & WOA. They ultimately said the coach shouldn't be restricted because "jewelry isn't equipment."

So if you ever do HS ball in WA, heads-up! (I know, not gonna happen...BTW we allow courtesy runners for player/dh if they pitch or catch too.)