2 man system appeal on a swing

[ArchAngel72]

Now I have been told 2 different things.  Yes and No

LL rules

 

Can a PU appeal on a swing to a BU that is in C or B or even D (why anyone would be in D in 2 man is beyond me) 

 

I swear at school in Bristol they told us Hell YES  because if that BU saw it better than you if you were blocked out its better to get the call correct.

I'm being told locally nope you cannot if they are in C or other wise because of positioning, I don't for the life of me feel that is correct.

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

If you're being told something by your superiors then, you should comply with that, of course.

They are wrong.

~Dawg

[ArchAngel72]

1 minute ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

If you're being told something by your superiors then, you should comply with that, of course.

They are wrong.

~Dawg

I'm looking for actual rule # on it. Hoping Senor can come thru on this one.  I don't recall seeing it in the book.  Course my book is all digital now and I'll be honest I miss the paperback.

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

If you want to alert a user to a thread, use the @.

@Senor Azul, please pick up the plaid courtesy phone. Senor Azul to the plaid courtesy phone, please.

~Dawg

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Now I have been told 2 different things.  Yes and No

LL rules

 

Can a PU appeal on a swing to a BU that is in C or B or even D (why anyone would be in D in 2 man is beyond me) 

 

I swear at school in Bristol they told us Hell YES  because if that BU saw it better than you if you were blocked out its better to get the call correct.

I'm being told locally nope you cannot if they are in C or other wise because of positioning, I don't for the life of me feel that is correct.

 

The short answer is just go when asked. Just go! Don't be the guy that doesn't go because you feel that your BU didn't have a "good look" at it.

I don't understand why some teach not to go in certain situations. Always go to your partner when asked. Go to your partner when not asked if you think you got blocked out, too. Especially on a U3K.

[MadMax]

7 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I'm being told locally nope you cannot if they are in C or other wise because of positioning, I don't for the life of me feel that is correct.

And it is not correct. Your (gut) feelings are dead-on right about this. You’ve just encountered colleagues who subscribe to “the myth”. 

Position has absolutely nothing to do with it. My colleagues know I will, as PU, go to them on a check swing appeal to them if they are standing anywhere inside the fence. Alternatively, my colleagues know they can (most do; but, there are some who still subscribe to “the myth” and don’t  ) appeal to me, as BU, on a check-swing regardless of where I’m standing, and I will give them exactly what I judge it to be – a swing attempt or not. 

It really is a part of effective game management; not as a PU (only), but as an umpire team. 

Because again, it’s not about positioning, it’s about attention. And some umpires don’t want to be called to the carpet on whether or not they were paying attention during an at-bat, nor do they have the interpersonal skills (or discipline; see following story) to handle any friction that comes from this. 

Just the other night, I’m in a 3-man crew as U3, standing at C, and my PU came to me on a check-swing appeal. Now, in this League – like any other league in the baseball landscape – there’s been a direction to “stop grabbing swings” and “denying checks” (as PU), and instead rely on the BU(s). So, my PU came to me, I judged it as a swing attempt, and signaled as such. Of course someone gripes (fan? bullpen? who cares?) that I “can’t see that from that angle”, but the overwhelming majority of participants accepted it, and moved on. 

I understand what you’re trying to accomplish by seeking out an “official edict” or some Rule citation; for that, @Senor Azul is going to be the best resource. Barring that, if Bristol (ie. the LL School) is telling you/us to appeal to BUs regardless of position, dontchathink that’s about as formal as it needs to be? I can tell you, in the Big schools and camps, BUs are appealed to at any time and position. What you’re encountering are stubborn, lazy individuals who are loping along in an arcane desert. Sure, you can bring them enlightenment in the form of an official directive – a cup of water, so to speak – but can you really make them drink it? 

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Now I have been told 2 different things.  Yes and No

LL rules

 

Can a PU appeal on a swing to a BU that is in C or B or even D (why anyone would be in D in 2 man is beyond me) 

 

I swear at school in Bristol they told us Hell YES  because if that BU saw it better than you if you were blocked out its better to get the call correct.

I'm being told locally nope you cannot if they are in C or other wise because of positioning, I don't for the life of me feel that is correct.

 

I don't see why not...they either see a swing or don't...now, in practice, especially in softball, where ump on short fields is behind F6 is that guy almost never calls a swing on a right-handed batter...it would have to be blatantly obvious and PU didn't see it because he was blocked.   But he can see a swing on a lefty no problem.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Now I have been told 2 different things.  Yes and No

LL rules

 

Can a PU appeal on a swing to a BU that is in C or B or even D (why anyone would be in D in 2 man is beyond me) 

 

I swear at school in Bristol they told us Hell YES  because if that BU saw it better than you if you were blocked out its better to get the call correct.

I'm being told locally nope you cannot if they are in C or other wise because of positioning, I don't for the life of me feel that is correct.

 

Of course you can (and should, and in some codes must) go.  Now, the view the umpire in B or C has will be different, and some plays that might be judged as swings from A or D might be viewed as no swings fromB or C, but you should still go.  And, the umpire should give you what he has (a corollary to your question is that the umpire will "never" have a swing from B or C).

 

In fact, some (purported) study showed that the umpire *behind* the batter (so D for a RH hitter) has the best view -- NCAA said to go to the umpire on the line for a year or so before it was changed (and it was changed not because the calls were bad but because the coaches / players did not understand it).

[Umpire942]

1 hour ago, JonnyCat said:

The short answer is just go when asked. Just go! Don't be the guy that doesn't go because you feel that your BU didn't have a "good look" at it.

I don't understand why some teach not to go in certain situations. Always go to your partner when asked. Go to your partner when not asked if you think you got blocked out, too. Especially on a U3K.

I agree.  They say if you know he did or did not go , call it.   But if your doing this, you should be 100%.   Throwing it to you partner especially with hot heads around you, also instantly takes the heat of you, which usually you have enough.  

[ArchAngel72]

So I found this myself with google foo, pointed him to the article and he is still being obstinate.  Even told me get off the forums cause I am umpiring for the wrong reasons.. 

I am severely thinking of disassociating with this guy.  He is a decent umpire and he has corrected me several times but occasionally I correct him.   He is a very decent guy who is their for the kids and wants to help them out as much as possible and helps them during games too chatting them up and making sure they understand the Umpire is not their enemy. I like his roll with these 8-10U kids he has been a Umpire in this town for probably 25 years, but man show him he is wrong, and I feel like I get the beat down still.

Anyway thanks guys. I think he will be stubborn in his ways on this one.

https://www.littleleague.org/university/articles/did-he-go-getting-help-from-your-partner-on-a-checked-swing/

 

Did He Go? Getting Help from Your Partner on a Checked Swing

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There are times when it is appropriate for one umpire to check with his partner as to whether or not a call was made correctly. The most common occurrence is verifying the call on a checked or half swing.

Rather than dealing with what constitutes a swing (which is pure judgment), let’s look at the mechanics of the request.

When a pitch is delivered and the batter makes some type of motion that might be perceived as a swing, the plate umpire may still call the pitch a ball. If the defense feels that the batter may have swung, it may request that the plate umpire seek assistance from the field umpire.

The decision to seek assistance rests solely with the plate umpire; there is no rule that states that he must seek assistance. If he decides to “go for help,” it should be done with the following mechanics:

1. First, step clear of the catcher and the batter with a drop step to the rear of the plate area. If you can, remove your mask as you are stepping back; it will make communication easier.
2. Second, step directly toward the field umpire and point to him with your left hand. At the same time as you step, point and loudly ask the field umpire: “Did he go?” The field umpire will respond with either a “Yes, he did!” accompanied by a crisp strike signal; or “No, he didn’t!” while making a safe signal.

Understand that once the plate umpire has executed the request for help he has surrendered this call to the field umpire. From the field umpire’s perspective, you should respond only to your partner’s request no matter how many times an infielder or a coach calls out for your assistance.

The field umpire (whether in A, B, or C position) is to stay in set position until the plate umpire asks for help, or it becomes obvious that no request is going to be made.

The crew must be alert for the possibility of this happening at any time during a game. However there may be certain instances when situational awareness is critical. If you are in a situation where the uncaught third strike [Rule 6.09(b)] may come into play, it is highly-recommended that the plate umpire not wait for the defense to ask for an appeal and seek assistance immediately if there is any doubt regarding the existence of a swing.

Make sure that your actions do not place either team at a disadvantage. Some schools of umpiring teach that the field umpire should immediately make a call if he has a swing on an uncaught third strike, without waiting for his partner’s request. Little League® cautions against this, as it may expose the field umpire to undue criticism later in the game.

If the whole crew stays focused and alert, the check swing situations can be easily handled. One final note, if you are working a 3- or 4-man crew, the request for assistance always goes to the “uncovered” or “open” umpire that is first base for right-handed hitters, and third base for lefties.

[SeeingEyeDog]

So, now you are at one of man's truly primal crossroads...

You're right and you have a clear citation and your brothers' support.

So, do you challenge your superior and call for check swings when you need to and risk a reprisal?

Or do as your told?

Good luck with this and...do keep us posted.

~Dawg

[LRZ]

I suggest that you pre-game this and mutually decide with your partners how to proceed, so that you know what to expect.

If/when you work with Mr. Closed-Mind, you know what to expect from him, and you can umpire accordingly, even if that's wrong.

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

but man show him he is wrong, and I feel like I get the beat down still.

You’re stirring or muddying the waters of “his” little fishbowl. 

This is a paltry “hill to die on” (check swing appeals), but hey… stranger and more whimsical causes have endured (flat-earthers). 

3 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

So, do you challenge your superior and call for check swings when you need to and risk a reprisal?

Or do as your [sic] told?

How is this guy a superior? Within the fence, there’s essentially no such thing (despite NFHS endowing the PU as some sort of god). Sure, there are roles (PU, BU, et. al.), and each of those roles have responsibilities during a pitch and during a play, but each umpire is to work together as a coordinated, uniform team. 

A reprisal? A reprisal from who, regarding what? If this guy is PU, and Archy is BU, it just seems to me that Archy won’t be seeing any check swing appeals headed his way, and that the PU will deny appeal requests from the participants, likely to the consternation and frustration of those participants. It wouldn’t be Archy’s fault. 

Conversely, if Archy is PU, and Mister Big Fish is BU, and Archy makes a check swing appeal to him, he better give a response. Oh sure, he’ll probably b!tch about it post-game, on how Archy put him on the spot, and how Archy is a terrible umpire. Archy can easily reply, “Look, the Rules and Protocols say we go (grant check swing appeals), so I’m goin’. If you don’t like it, or can’t judge what a swing looks like, then maybe you’re umpiring for the wrong reasons.” 

“Do what you’re told”? Pffffft. Who’s doin’ the tellin’? Fellow umpire, via a pre-game or post-game discussion? You’re under no obligation to, especially when you’ve got official directives to the contrary. Even evaluators can give you feedback and advice, but they can’t tell you what to do. If an assigner/instructor/administrator tells you to do something, then I’d hope and expect there to be a reason behind it that is revealed through conversation or other communication; but, some colleague tellin’ ya to “do it this way, cuz I think it should be this way, and I said so”? Nope! 
 

[ArchAngel72]

Got to  note, I reached out to another umpire who was a prior UiC and sticks around with the league to help out here and there and he is World series bound next year, He was this year and pushed it back due to the restrictions/covid stuff.

Well that guy agrees with me fully.  I pointed that out to him, he comes back to me with "I will never make that call from C" 

That is what makes me want to go " Don't ask me to plate for you in a 2 man crew then"

He did last night as last nights LL Minors game was the 2nd to last playoff game for the town, and we do not like to solo those playoff games.

 

[beerguy55]

41 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I pointed that out to him, he comes back to me with "I will never make that call from C" 

Only a sith speaks in absolutes..."never" is a strong word but I can understand the position...from that part of the field how certain are you really, beyond a coin flip, except on the most blatantly obvious full swing....most check swings are close to 50/50 as they are, in whether the PU is calling a swing, or the ump at first or third base is calling it...the certainty I think drops significantly in the B/C spot...especially if the batter is on the same side of the plate as you.    The "safe" call is almost certainly "no he didn't".   Otherwise, you may as well just start flipping a coin.

So, yeah, sure, go to the guy in B/C...but I wonder how frequently the guy there is sure enough he saw a swing.    And on a full swing where you got blocked and he says "no"...he's the one who gets to look like a twit.   But that's so rare I wouldn't worry about it....in 40+ years of amateur ball with amateur umps I can only remember one time a plate umpire missed a full swing.  (and, as luck would have it, he was working solo)

[ArchAngel72]

I have missed one two times now as I got showered with sand from a catchers mitt I got sand in my eyes and blinked.

 

I called ball and the BU called time and got with me and saw me wiping sand out of my eyes and said yep he swung there and you got showered didnt yah.

sigh yep I did.  I corrected the call and moved on and asked the catcher to use his hand to balance with NOT his glove..

 

[noumpere]

56 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Only a sith speaks in absolutes...

 

At least we now know you are a Sith.

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

You’re stirring or muddying the waters of “his” little fishbowl. 

This is a paltry “hill to die on” (check swing appeals), but hey… stranger and more whimsical causes have endured (flat-earthers). 

How is this guy a superior? Within the fence, there’s essentially no such thing (despite NFHS endowing the PU as some sort of god). Sure, there are roles (PU, BU, et. al.), and each of those roles have responsibilities during a pitch and during a play, but each umpire is to work together as a coordinated, uniform team. 

A reprisal? A reprisal from who, regarding what? If this guy is PU, and Archy is BU, it just seems to me that Archy won’t be seeing any check swing appeals headed his way, and that the PU will deny appeal requests from the participants, likely to the consternation and frustration of those participants. It wouldn’t be Archy’s fault. 

Conversely, if Archy is PU, and Mister Big Fish is BU, and Archy makes a check swing appeal to him, he better give a response. Oh sure, he’ll probably b!tch about it post-game, on how Archy put him on the spot, and how Archy is a terrible umpire. Archy can easily reply, “Look, the Rules and Protocols say we go (grant check swing appeals), so I’m goin’. If you don’t like it, or can’t judge what a swing looks like, then maybe you’re umpiring for the wrong reasons.” 

“Do what you’re told”? Pffffft. Who’s doin’ the tellin’? Fellow umpire, via a pre-game or post-game discussion? You’re under no obligation to, especially when you’ve got official directives to the contrary. Even evaluators can give you feedback and advice, but they can’t tell you what to do. If an assigner/instructor/administrator tells you to do something, then I’d hope and expect there to be a reason behind it that is revealed through conversation or other communication; but, some colleague tellin’ ya to “do it this way, cuz I think it should be this way, and I said so”? Nope! 
 

@MadMax...if it is NOT the case that the OP is getting this information from a superior, then of course...logic dictates you operate under the correct knowledge that we pre-game our check swing appeals and go with what we pre-game.

Regardless...I stand by my remarks. There is no more challenging situation for a rank and file umpire who is not part of association leadership than to be told something BY A SUPERIOR that they know to be incorrect. It becomes a moment of truth...comply or face reprisals. We all get told stuff by partners that have been umpiring 20 or more years. But, when was the last time they went to a camp? When was the last time they read Referee magazine? When was the last time they came onto a forum like U-E? When was the last time they did ANYTHING that would provide them with new and improved techniques to umpire a baseball game? I personally think a big part of umpiring is always seeking to improve...not everybody feels this way.

As for assignors, evaluators and any others in a position of authority to influence the level or frequency or distance an umpire works? I don't know about your association but, where I work...you don't toe the line? Maybe you just keep workin' 10U for a bit. Maybe you get an unexpected week off. Maybe you get asked to work outside your radius more. Maybe you got far fewer playoff games this year than you did in previous years. Nobody ever announces reprisals...it's just reflected in your schedule. That's their leverage. I'd use that leverage, too.

~Dawg

[beerguy55]

26 minutes ago, noumpere said:

At least we now know you are a Sith.

 

As is Obi-Wan - always loved the unintentional irony of that line.

[Velho]

Son's HS playoff game last Saturday, after getting an early successful appeal from PU in A, the catcher went back to the well ~5 more times - yep, even when in C. PU went to him but led BU with a little safe sign flick down near his belt line. Not as subtle as it could have been but subtle enough that I didn't hear anyone say anything. I saw it twice.

Add: Catcher was awesome. 100% constant hustle and aware. Called the game (not the coach). Tagging kids on possible U3K, THEN going for the appeal. Firing the ball back to the pitchers (D1 commits including Texas) just as hard as it was coming in (not really but felt like it, y'know). Kids' nickname had to be "Sparky". 

[ArchAngel72]

51 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@MadMax...if it is NOT the case that the OP is getting this information from a superior, then of course...logic dictates you operate under the correct knowledge that we pre-game our check swing appeals and go with what we pre-game.

Regardless...I stand by my remarks. There is no more challenging situation for a rank and file umpire who is not part of association leadership than to be told something BY A SUPERIOR that they know to be incorrect. It becomes a moment of truth...comply or face reprisals. We all get told stuff by partners that have been umpiring 20 or more years. But, when was the last time they went to a camp? When was the last time they read Referee magazine? When was the last time they came onto a forum like U-E? When was the last time they did ANYTHING that would provide them with new and improved techniques to umpire a baseball game? I personally think a big part of umpiring is always seeking to improve...not everybody feels this way.

As for assignors, evaluators and any others in a position of authority to influence the level or frequency or distance an umpire works? I don't know about your association but, where I work...you don't toe the line? Maybe you just keep workin' 10U for a bit. Maybe you get an unexpected week off. Maybe you get asked to work outside your radius more. Maybe you got far fewer playoff games this year than you did in previous years. Nobody ever announces reprisals...it's just reflected in your schedule. That's their leverage. I'd use that leverage, too.

~Dawg

last time he went to camp went together.

then I went again the next year and he was supposed to go with a couple younger recruits but then covid hit and messed that all up

and fyi he is the UIC for our district. He is in charge also of the town I am in.  He's been with the town for like 25 years

 

[LRZ]

19 minutes ago, Velho said:

but led BU with a little safe sign flick down near his belt line

In OBR, you don't ask on a strike/swing, but you ask on a ball/no swing. You come to me, I'll give you what I have. If there is a right to an appeal, the appeal should be handled honestly. IMO, YMMV.

Velho, years ago, I umpired with a former D1 catcher who threw balls to the pitcher harder than they came in. And the pitcher was a big guy who went on to 14 years in the bigs. F1 finally asked my partner to let his catcher throw the balls back.

[SeeingEyeDog]

49 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

last time he went to camp went together.

then I went again the next year and he was supposed to go with a couple younger recruits but then covid hit and messed that all up

and fyi he is the UIC for our district. He is in charge also of the town I am in.  He's been with the town for like 25 years

 

There ya' go, Max. The umpire in question is in fact @ArchAngel72's UIC.

When a UIC tells you to do something...you either comply or face reprisals.

~Dawg

[Velho]

43 minutes ago, LRZ said:

1 hour ago, Velho said:

but led BU with a little safe sign flick down near his belt line

In OBR, you don't ask on a strike/swing, but you ask on a ball/no swing. You come to me, I'll give you what I have. If there is a right to an appeal, the appeal should be handled honestly. IMO, YMMV.

Yeah, it was apparent PU was going to BU out of obligation but managing to the "no swing" outcome. Not a good look.

43 minutes ago, LRZ said:

Velho, years ago, I umpired with a former D1 catcher who threw balls to the pitcher harder than they came in. And the pitcher was a big guy who went on to 14 years in the bigs. F1 finally asked my partner to let his catcher throw the balls back.

Ha!