wrong name on lineup card

[Guest william]

Yesterday i misspelled a player name in the lineup. the other team noticed it in the 4th inning. They came to the principal and argued that i had misspelled name. the umpire accepted the argument my the other team and forfeit the game against us.

Today we haver a reunión can someone please help me with this bad decisión. Can someone tell me where in the ISF rules i can find and answer.

 

thks

 

[Thunderheads]

I've never heard of a line up card "mis spelling" that forfeited a game????   That's ridiculous, and umpires that do stuff like this give us ALL a bad name  

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, Guest william said:

Yesterday i misspelled a player name in the lineup. the other team noticed it in the 4th inning. They came to the principal and argued that i had misspelled name. the umpire accepted the argument my the other team and forfeit the game against us.

Today we haver a reunión can someone please help me with this bad decisión. Can someone tell me where in the ISF rules i can find and answer.

 

thks

 

The only thing it can do is create a batting out of order situation.

And obvious errors are to be be noticed and corrected at the plate meeting. 

[CJK]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but I looked at the best ISF resource I could find and found this on page 24.

Quote

Sec. 8.SUBSTITUTES/ILLEGAL PLAYER.

A substitute may take the place of a player whose name is in his team’s line-up. The following regulations govern player substitutions.

• a. The coach or team representative of the team making the substitution shall immediately notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters. The plate umpire shall report the change to the scorer. A substitute is not officially in the game until a pitch has been thrown or a play made.
• b. If a substitute enters the game without reporting, and after a pitch has been thrown (legal or illegal), or after a play has been made, the player will be “Declared Ineligible” when discovered. The use of an unreported substitute, an illegal substitute, an unannounced replacement player, or the unannounced return of a withdrawn player, under the Replacement Player Rule, is handled as an appeal by the offended team and must be brought to the attention of the umpire while such player is in the game. If the team manager or the player in violation informs the umpire prior to the offended team’s appeal, there is no violation regardless of how long the player or players were illegally in the game. All action prior to the discovery is legal. If the team in violation has no substitutes to replace the player “Declared Ineligible” (or if the starter has re-entered one time), the game is forfeited.

It may be the sh!tty end of the stick, but once the lineups are official, I think the rules support an umpire who views the "correctly-spelled" player as an unreported substitute.  If you (the offending team) realized it and informed the umpire first, there would be no penalty.  If the other team appeals before you notice, the "correctly-spelled" player would be declared ineligible, and if you had no legal substitute, the game would be forfeited.

Having said that, if I had been the offending team, I think I'd have considered making the claim that my lineup was correct and the player's name was spelled incorrectly on the jersey.

[stkjock]

shame on the other coach for getting a "W" in such a SH*#ty manner... let the kids play the dang game

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

I've never heard of a line up card "mis spelling" that forfeited a game????   That's ridiculous, and umpires that do stuff like this give us ALL a bad name  

 

6 minutes ago, CJK said:

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but I looked at the best ISF resource I could find and found this on page 24.

It may be the sh!tty end of the stick, but once the lineups are official, I think the rules support an umpire who views the "correctly-spelled" player as an unreported substitute.  If you (the offending team) realized it and informed the umpire first, there would be no penalty.  If the other team appeals before you notice, the "correctly-spelled" player would be declared ineligible, and if you had no legal substitute, the game would be forfeited.

Having said that, if I had been the offending team, I think I'd have considered making the claim that my lineup was correct and the player's name was spelled incorrectly on the jersey.

On the surface it does sound stupid (let alone petty), but I can see cases where it would make sense.

I guess it comes down to what scrutiny is placed on whether or not the player on the field actually is the person listed on the lineup card - and when someone is expected to know what the coach meant.  I'm just trying to follow this to a logical extension about the identity of the players, and whether it's valid.   And if the kid is 12 years old you can't really ask them to produce their driver's license.

If Joe Smith is written on the lineup card, what is an umpire or coach allowed to try to prove that the guy in center field actually is or is not Joe Smith.  

If the guy in the field is actually Fred Williams, that would be a problem (though, technically, you could just say you misspelt Williams when you wrote Smith).

If the guy in the field is Joe Smyth...is that a misspelling, or a misidentification?   Who has the burden of proof to show that there actually is both a Joe Smith and a Joe Smyth that could be playing ball in that situation?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[maven]

A misspelled name results in no penalty. It's not batting out of order, because the right player is batting. Fix the card an move on.

[Thunderheads]

32 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

On the surface it does sound stupid (let alone petty), but I can see cases where it would make sense.

I guess it comes down to what scrutiny is placed on whether or not the player on the field actually is the person listed on the lineup card - and when someone is expected to know what the coach meant.  I'm just trying to follow this to a logical extension about the identity of the players, and whether it's valid.   And if the kid is 12 years old you can't really ask them to produce their driver's license.

If Joe Smith is written on the lineup card, what is an umpire or coach allowed to try to prove that the guy in center field actually is or is not Joe Smith.  

If the guy in the field is actually Fred Williams, that would be a problem (though, technically, you could just say you misspelt Williams when you wrote Smith).

If the guy in the field is Joe Smyth...is that a misspelling, or a misidentification?   Who has the burden of proof to show that there actually is both a Joe Smith and a Joe Smyth that could be playing ball in that situation?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tha'ts easy ....2 words ....  PLAY_ON .....  Smith, Smyth, SMithe, doesn't matter ......especially if you have a correct number.  My God, a mis-spelled name?    Please!   Choose your battles and play the flippin' game

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

Tha'ts easy ....2 words ....  PLAY_ON .....  Smith, Smyth, SMithe, doesn't matter ......especially if you have a correct number.  My God, a mis-spelled name?    Please!   Choose your battles and play the flippin' game

First - I thought the number was irrelevant?   Sure, it could be an identifier...but you could have nine number 12's on the field.  And, even if the number is right it doesn't mean the person is who they say it is.

Second - I want to be clear - it's petty.  It's not something I would ever consider as a coach or player, and I ever donned the Blue, I hope I'd have the common sense to identify a simple spelling mistake for what it is.

My question is about identification.  

Joe Smith is on the card, Joe Smyth is on the field.  Who has the burden of proof to show that the name on the card is a mistake in spelling, and not actually the name of a different human being - that there actually isn't a Joe Smith as well.  Coach A says he made a spelling mistake, it should say Joe Smyth...Coach B says no, Joe Smith actually exists, he's just not there that night, so the wrong player is on the card (or does it matter?)

 

Twins play on a team - Bob and Fred Jones.  On game night one twin gets sick and doesn't go to the game.  The other one does.  Coach puts Bob Jones on the lineup card.  Three innings later the opposing coach points out that Fred Jones is playing, not Bob.  What happens?   

To me, the misspelling COULD fall into this category - because you may not really know if it's a bad spelling, or if it's actually a different person.  (or does it matter?)

Is the lineup card supposed to represent an identification of who actually is playing the game?  Or is it a label applied to a player in question - and that the label doesn't have to be technically correct, provided the same human uses the same label for the duration of the game?   That is, a person named Joe Smith could be called Fred Flinstone on the lineup card?

I know there has to be some validity to the name for pitchers to track pitch counts.

 

And yeah, there's a whole different can of worms with a team that has two Joe Smith's, and only one Joe Smith on the lineup card...but to me it's again where the burden of proof does or doesn't lie to say if the right, or wrong, Joe Smith is on the field. (or does it matter?)

[Rich Ives]

23 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

Twins play on a team - Bob and Fred Jones.  On game night one twin gets sick and doesn't go to the game.  The other one does.  Coach puts Bob Jones on the lineup card.  Three innings later the opposing coach points out that Fred Jones is playing, not Bob.  What happens?   

To me, the misspelling COULD fall into this category - because you may not really know if it's a bad spelling, or if it's actually a different person.  (or does it matter?)

 

This one really is the wrong person.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

This one really is the wrong person.

And in baseball a legal unreported sub. Most softball codes get upset about unreported subs and penalize in some way as shown in ISF. HS coaches who go back and forth between BB and SB get frantic when they think their pinch hitter didn’t check in on the BB field. 

[beerguy55]

18 hours ago, Jimurray said:

And in baseball a legal unreported sub. Most softball codes get upset about unreported subs and penalize in some way as shown in ISF. HS coaches who go back and forth between BB and SB get frantic when they think their pinch hitter didn’t check in on the BB field. 

That's a good point.  I forget that difference with baseball.  Yes, this would be far more significant in softball, where in many codes, yes, an unreported substitution of the right fielder can result in the negation of the play (same principal as batting out of order), and for the illegal sub to be subbed out of the game.   

 

[Thunderheads]

21 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

First - I thought the number was irrelevant?   Sure, it could be an identifier...but you could have nine number 12's on the field.  And, even if the number is right it doesn't mean the person is who they say it is.

Second - I want to be clear - it's petty.  It's not something I would ever consider as a coach or player, and I ever donned the Blue, I hope I'd have the common sense to identify a simple spelling mistake for what it is.

My question is about identification.  

Joe Smith is on the card, Joe Smyth is on the field.  Who has the burden of proof to show that the name on the card is a mistake in spelling, and not actually the name of a different human being - that there actually isn't a Joe Smith as well.  Coach A says he made a spelling mistake, it should say Joe Smyth...Coach B says no, Joe Smith actually exists, he's just not there that night, so the wrong player is on the card (or does it matter?)

 

Twins play on a team - Bob and Fred Jones.  On game night one twin gets sick and doesn't go to the game.  The other one does.  Coach puts Bob Jones on the lineup card.  Three innings later the opposing coach points out that Fred Jones is playing, not Bob.  What happens?   

To me, the misspelling COULD fall into this category - because you may not really know if it's a bad spelling, or if it's actually a different person.  (or does it matter?)

Is the lineup card supposed to represent an identification of who actually is playing the game?  Or is it a label applied to a player in question - and that the label doesn't have to be technically correct, provided the same human uses the same label for the duration of the game?   That is, a person named Joe Smith could be called Fred Flinstone on the lineup card?

I know there has to be some validity to the name for pitchers to track pitch counts.

 

And yeah, there's a whole different can of worms with a team that has two Joe Smith's, and only one Joe Smith on the lineup card...but to me it's again where the burden of proof does or doesn't lie to say if the right, or wrong, Joe Smith is on the field. (or does it matter?)

That was my point with the number.   If Joe Smith is on the card and it's Joe Smyth on the field (or vice versa) ..... if the number is correct for Joe Smi(y)th, then that's who that is.   You can also look to ensure there isn't a Smith AND a Smyth.

[Aging_Arbiter]

O O O

[Mister B]

We played a team this fall that had 3 #22s. One of them was named Kayden and another named Caiden. Another team had 2 #19s both named K. Jones. 

Thank god it's fall ball. 

Although I did hear 2 different coaches argue that the base coach is not allowed to leave the coach's box. 

[beerguy55]

4 minutes ago, Mister B said:

We played a team this fall that had 3 #22s. One of them was named Kayden and another named Caiden. Another team had 2 #19s both named K. Jones. 

Thank god it's fall ball. 

Although I did hear 2 different coaches argue that the base coach is not allowed to leave the coach's box. 

I remember playing against a team in community ball that had, if memory serves:

Kayley 

Kailey

Keely

Kylie

Hailey (x2)

Hayley

 

I would blow my brains out if I was that team's coach.