Kneeling for National Anthem

[jjb]

Lawump, I heard (ok, read) you for years and respect your (real) profession as well as your knowledge on the field. BUT, I’m not sure you’re differentiating between what you have the right to do and what you should do.

Yeah, they have the absolute “right” to sit during the anthem. 1^st Amendment, got it. However, you have the Constitutional Right to stand up in Court and yell “the Judge Sucks!”. What you can’t do is do it without repercussions; you will then hear a loud “clang”, and your new roommate will introduce himself.

Before they decided to embark on this course, they needed to think of a couple things:

1.       Will this actually  accomplish anything? Is there anyone who thinks that the people will see someone kneel and think, “Oh, yeah, I forgot, let’s talk about racism in America”. Really?

2.       Are you really prepared to teach children that disrespecting America and the flag is the way to demonstrate your disaffection with the current administration? If they get a C in Spelling, do you want them sitting in the corridors during the Pledge of Allegiance?

3.       Finally, my most important point: What If It Doesn’t Work? So OK, they sit, and nothing happens with America; (see point #1). What’s next? Do they kneel during kickoffs? Burn the Flag at halftime? Exit strategies are important.

Finally, an observation: the NFL fined a player who wrote his father’s initials on his shoes after he died. The NFL denied the Cowboys putting a sticker on their helmets after 5 police officers died during a protest in Dallas. But, disrespect the Flag, and America, we’re good to go. Hard to have any respect for these people.

[Gfoley4]

5 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

you know, that's true ...and a good point that supports mine.  He started all of this 'kneeling protest stuff' and it's gotten him no where but out of a job ....so the protest isn't gaining the real issue any attention, but only bad press for him.    

p.s.  it's not working ....

bad press for him? you think the president coming out and saying that he's a son of a bitch is bad press for Kaepernick? You're right in that the "real issue" of police brutality and racism isn't getting as much attention, but that's only because it has morphed into a talking point that an anthem protest is "un-American" or "disrespecting the troops" 

[jjb]

I agree, Foley; the message gets morphed into so many other things that the original message gets shoved to the corner.

That’s my point; we really don’t know what the players are “protesting” against; therefore we can’t decide whether to fight for or against them. “Racism?” OK, show me who has discriminated against whom, and I’ll be at your side fighting with you. Use words like “everyone knows”, and “institutional racism”, and you lose me; it’s much too vague. Far as I know, there are no meetings deciding to discriminate against anyone.

You can’t reply to the question: “what’s your beef?” to “Racism”. It’s just too vague. It’s like the answer to ”what’s wrong with Umpiring?” to “the Infield Fly Rule”. OK, what the hell does that mean?

I’d be happy to discuss individual issues with you, but I’m sure Warren would decide this is an Umpires’ Forum (correctly), and shut us down.

[Kevin_K]

This country was founded on dissent and will continue to thrive because there are those who do.

When James Otis resigned his position as the Advocate General of Massachusetts in 1761 he did so knowing that he would be hurt financially. He believed that the use of generalized search warrants by British officials ran counter to the long held beliefs that British citizens were entitled to protection from unbridled government intrusion in their lives. When he resigned, he forfeited the financial interest in a percentage of the value of all goods seized with these writs of assistance. John Adams believed Otis' actions were the spark that lit the slow burning fire of the independence movement.

Embedded in the rights Americans hold dear is the freedom of speech, which like all other Constitutional protections is not an absolute right. Freedom of speech is one of the rights championed in Federalist Essay 10 by James Madison who cautioned against the tyranny of the majority, saying that a minority (read small percentage, not race) voice could be drowned out by being overwhelmed by many louder voices.

Often, that smaller group has something of great significance to convey. Sometimes that lone voice is the one that needs to be heard and those in positions of power want the dissenter silenced. How many in our government would have silenced people like Martin Luther King, Mary Beth Tinker , Senator Margaret Chase Smith ? When the Alien and Sedition Acts were enacted, it was the same James Madison who led the charge against the government's ability to silence dissent when he and Thomas Jefferson worked in tandem to nullify these limits to freedom of speech.

If we allow speech to be silenced because we don't agree with the message the dissenter presents, none of us may have the right to speak our conscience in a public forum. While some view the actions of professional athletes as spoiled and hollow, their ability to express an opinion ought not to be limited. I certainly would not want most people to be the arbiter of whether or not my speech or beliefs are acceptable to them and whether or not I have a right to express those ideas.

The rights in the Constitution only limit the power of the government. Through this limit, all of us have the ability to speak our minds about this movement. If the dissent toward the Star Spangled Banner is so distasteful, move to action. Stop supporting the organization that allows the egregious. If the offense presented is genuine, tell the organization in a manner that is unmistakable. Stop watching. Stop attending. Stop buying licensed merchandise. Unfortunately, for too many people, football is more important than what they claim to be their beliefs.  

It is easy to claim outrage about the actions of those who kneel, raise a fist, or offer some other symbolic protest. Those who are protesting have more courage than many who claim the actions are disrespectful to the flag, the country, or individuals. The complainers frequently do nothing productive to effect change. Perhaps it's because complaining is easy and actions take effort and sometimes cause discomfort. 

If you are truly upset, do something to show it other than using words that are just as hollow as taking a knee.

[jjb]

Wow, Kevin; you channeling Madison by any chance? Very well done ,sir.

In your defense of the 1st Amendment, believe me, we stand shoulder to shoulder. I unabashedly celebrate their right to speak; I only question the assertion of nobility in doing so, and the assertion (perhaps even yours) that the players, (though shielded from consequences financial or otherwise), are somewhat "courageous". I stand by my assertion that, until they have something to lose, they are not.

I hate to use the words of others, but please look at this

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/25/mike-rowe-blasts-everyone-involved-in-the-nfl-national-anthem-protests/

Either way, you have spoken your opinions succinctly and honorably and I have enjoyed reading them. jim

 

[lawump]

My comments/reply are in red.

Lawump, I heard (ok, read) you for years and respect your (real) profession as well as your knowledge on the field. BUT, I’m not sure you’re differentiating between what you have the right to do and what you should do.  

Yeah, they have the absolute “right” to sit during the anthem. 1^st Amendment, got it. However, you have the Constitutional Right to stand up in Court and yell “the Judge Sucks!”. What you can’t do is do it without repercussions; you will then hear a loud “clang”, and your new roommate will introduce himself.  While I agree as to what is likely to happen should I yell "the Judge Sucks!" in Court, these two things are not equivalent (not legally and not to me on a personal level).

Before they decided to embark on this course, they needed to think of a couple things:

1.       Will this actually  accomplish anything? Is there anyone who thinks that the people will see someone kneel and think, “Oh, yeah, I forgot, let’s talk about racism in America”. Really?  This same line of reasoning has been used over-and-over to describe various actions that African-Americans have taken over our nation's history to protest racial discrimination.  Occasionally, of course, those asserting "but it won't accomplish anything," have been correct.  Often, thankfully, they have been wrong.

2.       Are you really prepared to teach children that disrespecting America and the flag is the way to demonstrate your disaffection with the current administration? If they get a C in Spelling, do you want them sitting in the corridors during the Pledge of Allegiance?  First, a student has the absolute right to sit during the Pledge of Allegiance.  There is case law on that, too.  But, setting that aside, you (and others who share your view) view the players' actions as "disrespecting America and the flag".  Others disagree.  In fact, I don't think these players' actions are teaching my children what you assert.  I think, first and foremost, this is a great lesson in the first amendment.  But, more than that, I believe it is teaching my children that when you believe there exists a significant social injustice...do something (peacefully) about it.  

3.       Finally, my most important point: What If It Doesn’t Work? So OK, they sit, and nothing happens with America; (see point #1). What’s next? Do they kneel during kickoffs? Burn the Flag at halftime? Exit strategies are important.  What if it does work???  What if they are the catalyst for societal change?  Saying, "what if it doesn't work," is hardly a reason not to try.  It may work...even if the chance of it working is remote.  Positive change in this country has never occurred because someone sat back and said, "nah, I shouldn't do it because 'what if it doesn't work'."  Positive change has occurred because certain people have refused to be afraid of failure and, because of that refusal to be afraid, have gone out and made change. 

Finally, an observation: the NFL fined a player who wrote his father’s initials on his shoes after he died. The NFL denied the Cowboys putting a sticker on their helmetsafter 5 police officers died during a protest in Dallas. But, disrespect the Flag, and America, we’re good to go. Hard to have any respect for these people.  I will respond by paraphrasing what a legal commentator stated on a website I was reading (I cannot recall if it was ESPN, SI, or another website).  The NFL has in the collective bargaining agreement ("CBA") the right to punish players for all of the things you listed.  The league and players association negotiated what can and cannot be on a player's uniform and their agreement was memorialized in the CBA.  In order to punish the players for kneeling during the national anthem (which you consider disrespecting the flag and America, but others do not) the NFL would have to secure that right under the collective bargaining agreement. 

So, in summary, according to this legal commentator (who was strictly neutral on this whole issue...he was just setting forth the law), the NFL would have to secure that right through collective bargaining.  Maybe the NFL will attempt to secure that right when the next CBA is negotiated.  However, unrelated to this issue, from what I have been reading over the last few months the NFL and NFLPA aren't even talking to one another, period, and there is likely to be a strike/lockout anyways when the current CBA expires.  In other words, I think NFL and NFLPA are a lot more concerned about a host of other issues than they are about this kneeling issue.  But, maybe I'm wrong.  We'll just have to wait and see what the NFL demands are when the current CBA nears its end.

You and I both agree with Kevin's eloquent response.  (I agree with and "liked" your reply to his post.)  But, I doubt very sincerely that anything I post is going to change your views of the players' actions.  Furthermore, nothing you post is going to change my views of the players' actions.  And that's okay.  This is America, after all.  We can disagree.  

Just don't eject a player playing for a public institution of learning from a baseball game should he kneel during the national anthem.  LOL

 

 

[jjb]

LawUmp; I read your responses. We agree to disagree, and that's what I wish everyone would follow. We can have a spirited debate on a topic, and, at the end, shake hands and move on. That's why I post here and nowhere else. 

Peace, out, brother....

[maineump]

Would any of all of the kneeling gotten this far if the President didn't bring it up in a speech? I hadn't heard any more about it until it was said in the speech, now the entire league is involved.

I believe, if nothing would have been brought up in the first place, it would all blow over and it would just be "Who was Kapernick?" in a few years. I think the Government had bigger things to worry about than a former player than knelt for the Anthem,

Isn't there something about the government interfering with the private industry?

[Mussgrass]

I would think that the schools, venue owners, team owners etc all have the right to say don't do that here on my turf. That doesn't infringe on anyone's right to free speech. How many of our employers would simply "Get back to work!" 

There are proper times and places to peacefully protest.

Also, never mind the fact that the whole BLM/Antifa/Occupy movement is based on lies and propaganda.

[Bloodhound1042]

Ok so I know I'm new and all but I wanted to give my $0.01 cent.  I have worn a uniform (former LEO trying to switch departments),  I have worked in the urban inner city areas and have been accused of being the white cop that doesn't care (which is egregiously false).  While I myself will never kneel for the anthem, I have no issue with them doing it as it is their 1st Amendment right to do so, however, I am also under the belief that everything has its consequences and time/place.

I will defend them if they kneel, I will defend them if they stand.  I do not differentiate between white, black, etc.  You and I are the American people.  If it wasn't for some famous Americans protesting, others wouldn't be where they are today.  As I said, for me, I cannot do it but I understand it.  I also firmly believe that this whole thing has taken a misguided direction lately. In the beginning when Kapernick initially kneeled, it was all about police brutality.  Now, most will tell you it is a protest against the US as a whole.

I have no problem debating the issue and can find both pros and cons for both sides.  The real question is...what's to come in the future?

[jonathantullos]

Serious question: Why is this a debate for us? And why would we intervene if an athlete chooses to kneel? That's not our place to correct that, that is their coach's call. My thing is, we are to remain neutral and this should also be a place where we remain neutral. Having said that, if the game I'm calling includes the national anthem (I've only been to one school in my HS region that had it), I will be standing. If someone else chooses not to, that's their choice and is between them and their coach.

[HokieUmp]

23 hours ago, jjb said:

I unabashedly celebrate their right to speak; I only question the assertion of nobility in doing so,

This seems demonstrably false.  I give you the following:

On 9/25/2017 at 6:23 PM, jjb said:

Are you really prepared to teach children that disrespecting America and the flag is the way to demonstrate your disaffection with the current administration?

I'm sure there are other examples, but to me, this doesn't sound a lot like a "celebration."

I asked this elsewhere, but I'll throw it out here:  other than the Perpetual Outrage Machine that is Fox News, can someone tell me how the taking of a knee in that situation disrespects the flag?  And more importantly, how it disrespects the military?  The best argument for that I've heard is essentially "well, it just does!"  I think people are conflating what the protest is actually addressing, versus what they're TELLING themselves it's about.  Either that, or they're getting emotionally wrapped around the axle.

Kaep protested the treatment of black Americans;  this past weekend was not only that, but a attempt to remind DJT that he's not a dictator, and the Constitution is still in effect.  And, for him to stop being such a damn bully.

[Cav]

9 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

I asked this elsewhere, but I'll throw it out here:  other than the Perpetual Outrage Machine that is Fox News, can someone tell me how the taking of a knee in that situation disrespects the flag?  And more importantly, how it disrespects the military?  

Here's some Cliff Notes, if indeed your questions are genuine.  I'll give you more credit than the perception your words portray.   

U.S. Flag Code

• At the venue- all present, except those in military uniforms, should stand facing the flag with their right hand over their heart out of respect. Follow the lead of those at the podium or onstage and share the moment together as Americans.

• If there’s no flag- if for some reason there’s no flag in the ceremony, face toward the music and act as if a flag were there.

• Hats- if you’re not in a military uniform and are wearing a hat, remove it with your right hand and hold it over your left shoulder, while your hand is over your heart.

• Military personnel- members in uniform should render the military salute at the beginning of the anthem and retain the position throughout.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CDOC-109sdoc18/pdf/CDOC-109sdoc18.pdf

 

 

[hbk314]

On 9/24/2017 at 8:14 PM, catsbackr said:

Leave all the players, NFL, MLB, whatever, in the locker rooms until after the anthem is played.

 

(I really don't believe what I just said.  I would fire them if I had the power).  No place anywhere for that kind of look at me, I'm so special because I'm protesting mentality, etc.  Be proud of your country, work to fix what's broken or get the hell out.

 

How un-American of you.

[catsbackr]

13 hours ago, jonathantullos said:

Serious question: Why is this a debate for us? And why would we intervene if an athlete chooses to kneel? That's not our place to correct that, that is their coach's call. My thing is, we are to remain neutral and this should also be a place where we remain neutral. Having said that, if the game I'm calling includes the national anthem (I've only been to one school in my HS region that had it), I will be standing. If someone else chooses not to, that's their choice and is between them and their coach.

Jonathan,

 

This debate probably isn't for us. 

 

I only responded to it because if I'm at a game and the National Anthem is played and people are not respectful of the flag or the anthem, it pisses me off.  Period.

[jonathantullos]

Jonathan,
 
This debate probably isn't for us. 
 
I only responded to it because if I'm at a game and the National Anthem is played and people are not respectful of the flag or the anthem, it pisses me off.  Period.

I understand that but, again, we can't intervene. It simply is not our place.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[kylehutson]

On 9/24/2017 at 12:03 PM, UMP45 said:

  Okay. We've had our first MLB player kneel for the Anthem. How long do you think it will take for it to get to our level or will we even see it?

I won't see it - because I'll be facing the flag.

[LRZ]

20 hours ago, Mussgrass said:

There are proper times and places to peacefully protest.

Who gets to decide what/when is proper?

[lawump]

8 hours ago, Cav said:

Here's some Cliff Notes, if indeed your questions are genuine.  I'll give you more credit than the perception your words portray.   

U.S. Flag Code

• At the venue- all present, except those in military uniforms, should stand facing the flag with their right hand over their heart out of respect. Follow the lead of those at the podium or onstage and share the moment together as Americans.

• If there’s no flag- if for some reason there’s no flag in the ceremony, face toward the music and act as if a flag were there.

• Hats- if you’re not in a military uniform and are wearing a hat, remove it with your right hand and hold it over your left shoulder, while your hand is over your heart.

• Military personnel- members in uniform should render the military salute at the beginning of the anthem and retain the position throughout.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CDOC-109sdoc18/pdf/CDOC-109sdoc18.pdf

 

 

And here's the problem I have.  Where is all the outrage from Fox News (and others) with respect to all of the other violations of the U.S. Flag Code that have been "committed" by public figures and/or entities?  Looking at Section 8 of the document to which you linked in your post above, these have all been past violations that have not drawn the ire of Fox News (or conservative media):

(1) Singer Kid Rock cutting a hole in the middle of the flag, putting his head through the hole, and then wearing the flag as a top (poncho top) during his concert;

(2) Printing the US Flag on paper plates, napkins, etc.  (Which happens from Memorial Day to Fourth of July every year.  Just walk through Wal-Mart)

(3) Having the flag as part of an athletic uniform (other than a patch of the flag itself).  This happens all the time. 

(4) "The flag should never be used for advertising purposes..."  This happens all the time.

The hypocrisy of the Perpetual Outrage Machine  (I like that term, @HokieUmp) boggles the mind.  Of course, the machine is outraged at the players for violating the US Flag Code because it plays well to their demographic.  (And to be fair, liberal leaning media can be hypocrites, too.)  But the machine would never, ever call out Kid Rock (a conservative), big business (usually conservative leaning), or a sports team (sports being as American as Apple Pie).  So, the Machine can spare me the false outrage. 

I fly the American Flag on a flagpole in front of my house in full accordance with the US Code.  When my flag becomes tattered, I take it to the local American Legion so they can burn it.  I do not fly it at night, unless it is lit.  (I have a light shining on it.)  I ONLY fly it at half-staff when the President of the United States orders it to fly at half-staff, or flying it at half-staff is provided for by federal law (such as on Memorial Day and Patriots' Day).  In fact, on Memorial Day, I fly it at half-staff from sunrise until noon, when I then raise it to full-staff.  When putting the flag at half-staff, I raise it to full-staff for a second before lowering it to half-staff.  I also raise it to full-staff again before taking it down for the day.  And, finally, if you look at the picture of me standing at attention during the national anthem at the American Legion World Series last month (which I posted on this website... http://www.onlinepictureproof.com/vrstudio/albums/game_fourteen__nc_vs_ne/567353/guest/emoq19b5f6b8ck1/), you will see that I am holding my hat over my shoulder so that my hand is over my heart.

In other words, my behavior has been a hell of a lot more consistent than Fox News' behavior.  I have a lot more right to be outraged than Fox News as my behavior has been a lot more consistent.  But I (like the Supreme Court) find the abridging of one's first amendment right to be far more outrageous than failing to comply with the Flag Code.  For me, I'll save my outrage for the next time an unarmed, black man with his hands raised gets shot.

[JonnyCat]

35 minutes ago, lawump said:

And here's the problem I have.  Where is all the outrage from Fox News (and others) with respect to all of the other violations of the U.S. Flag Code that have been "committed" by public figures and/or entities?  Looking at Section 8 of the document to which you linked in your post above, these have all been past violations that have not drawn the ire of Fox News (or conservative media):

(1) Singer Kid Rock cutting a hole in the middle of the flag, putting his head through the hole, and then wearing the flag as a top (poncho top) during his concert;

(2) Printing the US Flag on paper plates, napkins, etc.  (Which happens from Memorial Day to Fourth of July every year.  Just walk through Wal-Mart)

(3) Having the flag as part of an athletic uniform (other than a patch of the flag itself).  This happens all the time. 

(4) "The flag should never be used for advertising purposes..."  This happens all the time.

The hypocrisy of the Perpetual Outrage Machine  (I like that term, @HokieUmp) boggles the mind.  Of course, the machine is outraged at the players for violating the US Flag Code because it plays well to their demographic.  (And to be fair, liberal leaning media can be hypocrites, too.)  But the machine would never, ever call out Kid Rock (a conservative), big business (usually conservative leaning), or a sports team (sports being as American as Apple Pie).  So, the Machine can spare me the false outrage. 

I fly the American Flag on a flagpole in front of my house in full accordance with the US Code.  When my flag becomes tattered, I take it to the local American Legion so they can burn it.  I do not fly it at night, unless it is lit.  (I have a light shining on it.)  I ONLY fly it at half-staff when the President of the United States orders it to fly at half-staff, or flying it at half-staff is provided for by federal law (such as on Memorial Day and Patriots' Day).  In fact, on Memorial Day, I fly it at half-staff from sunrise until noon, when I then raise it to full-staff.  When putting the flag at half-staff, I raise it to full-staff for a second before lowering it to half-staff.  I also raise it to full-staff again before taking it down for the day.  And, finally, if you look at the picture of me standing at attention during the national anthem at the American Legion World Series last month (which I posted on this website... http://www.onlinepictureproof.com/vrstudio/albums/game_fourteen__nc_vs_ne/567353/guest/emoq19b5f6b8ck1/), you will see that I am holding my hat over my shoulder so that my hand is over my heart.

In other words, my behavior has been a hell of a lot more consistent than Fox News' behavior.  I have a lot more right to be outraged than Fox News as my behavior has been a lot more consistent.  But I (like the Supreme Court) find the abridging of one's first amendment right to be far more outrageous than failing to comply with the Flag Code.  For me, I'll save my outrage for the next time an unarmed, black man with his hands raised gets shot.

I'll save my outrage for the next time ANY unarmed person with their hands raised gets shot.

[Rich Ives]

So how many people that are against kneeling for the anthem also want a prayer at the game and support the right to bear arms.?

Cherry pick the bill of rights?  Your interpretation vs. the Supreme Court's rulings? 

 

[Cav]

2 hours ago, lawump said:

And here's the problem I have.  Where is all the outrage from Fox News (and others) with respect to all of the other violations of the U.S. Flag Code that have been "committed" by public figures and/or entities?  

We report.  You decide.  Easy-peasy.  I decided to turn them off years ago, as well as most other media.  Perhaps your problem with Fox News and so many others were your expectations that they would be Fair and Balanced.

Just one of several problems I have is that there is little to no patriotic education on which our democracy depends for both: (1) The active participation of its citizens in their own governance; and, (2) To persuade free people to make the necessary sacrifices for the greater good.  (Another problem I have is attributing really smart people properly: Those thoughts stem from the minds of Donald Kagan and Wilfred McClay, neither of whom has been invited on Fox News.  Therein lies the rub. (Tip of the cap to Willy)).   

Keep talking the talk and walking the walk while we're still allowed to raise Old Glory on our own properties.    

 

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Kagan_Donald/

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/authors/wilfred-mcclay

http://www.shakespeare-online.com/

 

[Mussgrass]

23 hours ago, LRZ said:

Who gets to decide what/when is proper?

I'm not sure. I will simply say that we should not confuse freedom of speech which prevents the government from punishing someone, and an employers right to fire someone. They are totally different things.

[lawump]

2 hours ago, Mussgrass said:

I'm not sure. I will simply say that we should not confuse freedom of speech which prevents the government from punishing someone, and an employers right to fire someone. They are totally different things.

That is a very valid point.  In the case of the NFL, there is a CBA that governs the employer/employee relationship.  For most of us, that is not the case.

[lawump]

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/09/28/parkway-high-school-louisiana-punish-athletes-national-anthem-protest?utm_campaign=sportsillustrated&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_facebook_si

This may never get challenged because, for all I know, every student in this high school may be of the same view as the principal.  But if not...it will be interesting to see if the ACLU comes-a-knocking.  I'll definitely be keeping my eyes out for this one.