Stretch position, hands held high

[StrikeToWin]

Had this occur this weekend.  I found the reference in the fed book:

ART. 3 . . . For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of and parrallel to the pitcher's plate. He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. Natural preliminary motions such as only one stretch may be made. During these preliminary motions and during the set position until a delivery motion occurs, the pitcher may turn on his pivot foot or lift it in a jump turn to step with the non-pivot foot toward a base while throwing or feinting as outlined in 6-2-4 and 2-28-5, or he may lift his pivot foot in a step backward off the pitcher's plate which must be in or partially within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate. In order to change to the wind-up position, he must first step clearly backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he then has the right to throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other infielder.

PENALTY (Art. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.

 

I could not find a reference to the glove being at or below the chin.  Am I missing it or looking in the wrong place?  We were playing under OBR so I allowed the weird set position since I didn't think that there was a rule regarding this in OBR.  I knew it was in the Fed book but can't find it elsewhere.  Give me sites so that I know for next time.

[Rich Ives]

You can't find it elsewhere because it isn't there.

[conbo61]

5.07 (a)(2) (2015) The Set Position

Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop. From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot. Before assuming Set Position, the pitcher may elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as “the stretch.” But if he so elects, he shall come to Set Position before delivering the ball to the batter. After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption. Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 5.07(a)(2) (Rule 8.01(b)) without interruption and in one continuous motion. Rule 5.07 35 The pitcher, following his stretch, must (a) hold the ball in both hands in front of his body and (b) come to a complete stop. This must be enforced. Umpires should watch this closely. Pitchers are constantly attempting to “beat the rule” in their efforts to hold runners on bases and in cases where the pitcher fails to make a complete “stop” called for in the rules, the umpire should immediately call a “Balk.”

OBR does not stipulate a limitation on the height of his hands while in the set position.

[grayhawk]

Yup.  Just a stupid Fed rule.  I had that this weekend, but it was an OBR game so I was glad to be able to ignore it.

[StrikeToWin]

I will say this, the coach that questioned it simply told me that he wasn't going to make an issue of it, just simply stated that I was wrong and I told him I would look it up when I got home last night.  He is always respectful with umpires and is also very good with the rules.

[TheRockawayKid]

If this were a varsity school game, I'd maybe call it. In my summer leagues with FED rules, I've ignored it, and just told the coach after the fact. I also asked a rules interpreter, who said that the ball had to be completely above the chin (not contacting a plane with the chin) in order to be called a balk. If I'm in B or C, HOK set, looking up at him, I don't know if I'd be in the best position to see if the ball really is above the chin, if you get my drift. 

[grayhawk]

If this were a varsity school game, I'd maybe call it. In my summer leagues with FED rules, I've ignored it, and just told the coach after the fact. I also asked a rules interpreter, who said that the ball had to be completely above the chin (not contacting a plane with the chin) in order to be called a balk. If I'm in B or C, HOK set, looking up at him, I don't know if I'd be in the best position to see if the ball really is above the chin, if you get my drift. 

​Nothing at all to do with the BALL above the chin.  If any part of the GLOVE is at or below the chin, it's legal.

[TheRockawayKid]

​Nothing at all to do with the BALL above the chin.  If any part of the GLOVE is at or below the chin, it's legal.

​True.

[StrikeToWin]

This was not a question of whether or not it was above the chin, it was DEFINITELY above the chin.  I mean we are talking both hands were at the top of his head.  It was a strange set position, but he did it every time.

[maineump]

​Nothing at all to do with the BALL above the chin.  If any part of the GLOVE is at or below the chin, it's legal.

​Exactly - bottom of glove somewhere near the chin in my little world - dumb rule

[Jimurray]

​Exactly - bottom of glove somewhere near the chin in my little world - dumb rule

​Along with the FED set foot position. I'm tempted to take a total station out to the bases. ( I would have to borrow one). Just think, every time a pitcher takes the rubber in FED you have (if you are in an area where they nitpick this stuff) to look at stuff that doesn't matter before you even concentrate on what might be a real balk issue.

[noumpere]

​ I'm tempted to take a total station out to the bases. ( I would have to borrow one).

​I have worked with some umpires who were total tools, if that helps. 

[Umpire in Chief]

Has anybody actually enforced this in a HS game?

I have not. Think what you will about me being dishonest/ cheating/ yadda yadda yadda for not calling a rule as written.

Now I did balk a pitcher who was resting the glove against his face, then went to look at R2 and pulled the glove away from his face. 

[grayhawk]

Has anybody actually enforced this in a HS game?

I have not. Think what you will about me being dishonest/ cheating/ yadda yadda yadda for not calling a rule as written.

Now I did balk a pitcher who was resting the glove against his face, then went to look at R2 and pulled the glove away from his face. 

​This one is a lot like when a pitcher doesn't have his whole pivot foot within the length of the rubber.  The more he pushes it, the more likely I would be to call it.  If the guy has his hands completely over his head, then I don't think I could ignore it.

To answer your question - I have never called it, but I have rarely ever seen it either.

[maven]

I've never seen it. If he were borderline, I'd tell F2 to address it. If I saw it in warmups, I'd address it there.

Basically, I'd enforce it without penalizing it wherever possible.

[kylehutson]

Has anybody actually enforced this in a HS game?

​Enforced? No. But I have seen it in a JV game and told the coach I would call a balk if it was varsity.

I had a 12U USSSA game last week where the pitcher came set completely over his forehead. I told the coach that would be a balk in HS rules. He told me I was wrong. I shrugged and said "just trying to help."

[StrikeDavis]

Is there a legitimate reason for FED to have this rule in place?  

[jkumpire]

Yes, and no.

I have been told several times over the years that some FED rules are written to try and 'simplify' the rules (for lack of a better term) so they are easier to enforce by umpires (i.e. shoulder turn after coming set), or easier for the players (i.e. dead ball appeal). My guess is that they are trying to make sure everybody knows when F1 stops, and that F1 is in the set position. 

It might also be that there was a controversy over it somewhere in the country a decade or so ago, because I think it was about 10 years ago when the prohibition on stopping with any part of the hands above the chin was put into the rule book.

HS baseball is not the same as OBR baseball according to FED. Whether that is a good thing or not is up to you.

 

 

[maven]

Is there a legitimate reason for FED to have this rule in place?  

​Sure: people think it looks funny, so it must be illegal.

[kylehutson]

I always ASSumed it was to keep the pitcher from being able to throw without first bringing his arm backwards. (Why that would be an issue? Don't ask me.)

[catsbackr]

Tell these jackwagon coaches, "No coach, I'm not wrong! Go look it up."

[kylehutson]

Tell these jackwagon coaches, "No coach, I'm not wrong! Go look it up."

​Odds are they won't believe me until they look it up themselves anyway. You're just wasting good oxygen arguing.

[BuckeyeMike]

DO NOT go grab your rulebook between games and bring it back to the field to show him.   LOL.  

I did that once.....my first year.....before I ever knew this site existed.....with little to no training.  Bad joo joo man.......bad joo joo

[StrikeToWin]

DO NOT go grab your rulebook between games and bring it back to the field to show him.   LOL.  

I did that once.....my first year.....before I ever knew this site existed.....with little to no training.  Bad joo joo man.......bad joo joo

​You don't carry your rulebook in your back pocket during games?  I though all umpires did that.....  May have to rethink what I carry out to the field from now on