B or C

[Tksjewelry]

2 outs, runners at first and third. What position are you in? (left handed batter if that makes any difference)

I've had different experienced umpires locally give me different answers.

I feel like a low B is the better spot, but if that's not right, then it's not right and I'll move to the C.

[wingman3110]

B

[Richvee]

For what it's worth, (and for some it's no  more than scrap paper), FED recently changed to B any time you have R1/R3. I believe most, if not all manuals will say B

[Big_Mac14]

PBUC will tell you that 2 man position for BU will be the same for both R1 and R1/R3! (B)

Curious as to why you think low B will be better as this position will give you a worse angle to a pick off attempt at third.

[ElkOil]

I take C.  It was the way we were taught, and I guess I never questioned why.  I've never felt like I needed a better position for anything.

[Tksjewelry]

PBUC will tell you that 2 man position for BU will be the same for both R1 and R1/R3! (B)

Curious as to why you think low B will be better as this position will give you a worse angle to a pick off attempt at third.

Maybe I'm not using those terms (low/high) correctly (very possible).

I'm little more than halfway to second from first and 3-5 paces in on the infield grass. (5 for my short legs, probably 3 for you)

[wingman3110]

I take C.  It was the way we were taught, and I guess I never questioned why.  I've never felt like I needed a better position for anything.

 

The old "Why do we do it this way? Because we have always done it this way"...

[maven]

For what it's worth, (and for some it's no more than scrap paper), FED recently changed to B any time you have R1/R3. I believe most, if not all manuals will say B

The FED manual is currently inconsistent. P. 40 says C, p. 41 says B. Go figure.

 

I use B, which gives a better look at the steal of 2B.

 

And B is not a bad angle for the pickoff back into 3B, which in any case is rather rare.

[noumpere]

There's no right or wrong answer and each position has its merits.

 

When someone who prefers the "other" position rises to aposition of power, the "right" way changes.

 

Besides, it's rarely where you start; it's where you finish.

[BuckeyeMike]

B

 

UNLESS:  I notice the 3B staying close for a possible back-pick.   This is a complete "feel" situation. 

[umpstu]

B at all times in this situation.

[krwill96]

Anytime a steal of second base is possible go B.

[Richvee]

Anytime a steal of second base is possible go B.

That reminds me of something to keep in mind when you have R1/R3. Always be alert for that F4 or F6 cutting into your working area to cut off the throw to 2nd to try and get R3 wondering off 3rd or trying to score. 

[Tksjewelry]

Good stuff guys, thanks. I'm glad to know my instincts were situationally correct.

Hadn't seen that play yet @Richvee, but I'll keep alert to it as a possibility.

[ElkOil]

 

I take C.  It was the way we were taught, and I guess I never questioned why.  I've never felt like I needed a better position for anything.

 

The old "Why do we do it this way? Because we have always done it this way"...

 

 

Yeah, I suppose it is.  But I'm not real sure what the compelling advantages are to taking B.  However, now that I'm thinking about it and reading everyone is saying, I like the idea.  Maybe I'll try it at my next game and see what it's all about.

[lawump]

MiLB has had the base umpire in "B" with a runner on first OR runners on first-and-third for 20+ years.  They've had numerous umpire development (or whatever they've been called: UDP, PBUC, MiLBUD) leaders over those 20+ years (Ed Lawrence, Mike Fitzpatrick, Justin Klemm & Dusty Dellinger) and not one of them has thought or discussed changing this.  Why? Because the advantages of "B" far outweigh the advantages of "C" with R1 & R3...at least in games played by shaving aged players. 

 

Think about it...for every pick-off attempt you'll have against an R3 in this situation, you'll have 20? 30? 40? against R1.  Next, you don't have to worry about third base if the ball is hit into the outfield...your partner has R1 going into third base (first-to-third rotation).  So, starting in "C" would be a detriment to getting to where you need to be (you need to be in the "working area" shaded toward the first base side).  Next, with one out the defense will likely try to turn two on a ground ball...and with two out the defense will likely try to get the force out at second or first...so, again, I ask, why would you want to start in "C"?  You need to be closer to first base for the back-end of the double play (that's the "money" call...it is usually a close call AND a run will score (or not score) based on your call).

 

What is the advantage of starting in "C"?  Yes, it gets you closer to third for a close pick-off attempt at third base.  The odds of this happening are far, far less than everything else I listed above.

[Kevin_K]

FWIW, the current Umpire Manual on the NFHS page on the Arbiter indicates only B for first and third

[maven]

FWIW, the current Umpire Manual on the NFHS page on the Arbiter indicates only B for first and third

 

As I've already posted, the FUM is contradictory. On p. 40, it says position C "will be used in any situation with runners occupying bases other than first base in the two-man system." So with R1/R3, that statement implies you'd be in C.

 

On p. 41, it states, "with a single runner at first or with runners at first and third, you will be in position B..."

 

Since anything follows logically from a contradiction, I choose B.

[ElkOil]

I spoke with my assigner about this this morning and he gave me some background.  B with R1 and R3 is an approved mechanic, and is our option.  We were taught to use C as new umpires who work JV, Select and MABL/MSBL until we got used to things.  It also simplified the mechanic, making it less conditional because he told me it's a particularly attractive option to be in B with less than two out, and maybe preferential to be in C with two out because with R1 stealing, there may not be a throw down.  B has an advantage in addition to what @lawump posted in that if R1's plan is to get in a run-down so R3 can score, you're in a better position for that, too.

 

Looks like I'll be trying something new at my next game.

[Kevin_K]

Perhaps I should have been more explicit.

 

On page 56 of the manual, under Article 7: R1 At Third and R2 At First, the only position referred to for U2 is position B.

[bam]

FWIW, the current Umpire Manual on the NFHS page on the Arbiter indicates only B for first and third

 

As I've already posted, the FUM is contradictory. On p. 40, it says position C "will be used in any situation with runners occupying bases other than first base in the two-man system." So with R1/R3, that statement implies you'd be in C.

 

On p. 41, it states, "with a single runner at first or with runners at first and third, you will be in position B..."

 

Since anything follows logically from a contradiction, I choose B.

I don't see anything contradictory. "C will be used in any situation with runners occupying bases other than first" - R1/R3 doesn't meet that qualification - OTHER THAN.

[maven]

I don't see anything contradictory. "C will be used in any situation with runners occupying bases other than first" - R1/R3 doesn't meet that qualification - OTHER THAN.

 

First of all, R1/R3 does indeed have runners occupying bases other than first: R3 is on third base, which is a base other than first.

 

Next, to mean what you think it means, it should say, "...with runners occupying ONLY bases other than first." Of course, FED rules writers are syntactically challenged, so this point is not probative.

 

Finally, by your reasoning, they'd want us in B with bases loaded and with R1/R2. They don't.

[Richvee]

FED changed this from C to B just a year or two ago. As with most things FED does, they changed it but missed all the references to it in the manual. SImilar to the way they've left things in the case book after changing a rule. 

[bam]

I don't see anything contradictory. "C will be used in any situation with runners occupying bases other than first" - R1/R3 doesn't meet that qualification - OTHER THAN.

 

First of all, R1/R3 does indeed have runners occupying bases other than first: R3 is on third base, which is a base other than first.

 

Next, to mean what you think it means, it should say, "...with runners occupying ONLY bases other than first." Of course, FED rules writers are syntactically challenged, so this point is not probative.

 

Finally, by your reasoning, they'd want us in B with bases loaded and with R1/R2. They don't.

We both know where we're supposed to be with R1/R3.

I simply think when the wording is specifically "other than" first, it doesn't INCLUDE first.

[zm1283]

Anytime a steal of second base is possible go B.

 

With R1/R2 a steal of second base is possible. You should be in C in that situation. 

 

 

 

I take C.  It was the way we were taught, and I guess I never questioned why.  I've never felt like I needed a better position for anything.

 

The old "Why do we do it this way? Because we have always done it this way"...

 

 

Yeah, I suppose it is.  But I'm not real sure what the compelling advantages are to taking B.  However, now that I'm thinking about it and reading everyone is saying, I like the idea.  Maybe I'll try it at my next game and see what it's all about.

 

 

 

See quoted post below......

 

MiLB has had the base umpire in "B" with a runner on first OR runners on first-and-third for 20+ years.  They've had numerous umpire development (or whatever they've been called: UDP, PBUC, MiLBUD) leaders over those 20+ years (Ed Lawrence, Mike Fitzpatrick, Justin Klemm & Dusty Dellinger) and not one of them has thought or discussed changing this.  Why? Because the advantages of "B" far outweigh the advantages of "C" with R1 & R3...at least in games played by shaving aged players. 

 

Think about it...for every pick-off attempt you'll have against an R3 in this situation, you'll have 20? 30? 40? against R1.  Next, you don't have to worry about third base if the ball is hit into the outfield...your partner has R1 going into third base (first-to-third rotation).  So, starting in "C" would be a detriment to getting to where you need to be (you need to be in the "working area" shaded toward the first base side).  Next, with one out the defense will likely try to turn two on a ground ball...and with two out the defense will likely try to get the force out at second or first...so, again, I ask, why would you want to start in "C"?  You need to be closer to first base for the back-end of the double play (that's the "money" call...it is usually a close call AND a run will score (or not score) based on your call).

 

What is the advantage of starting in "C"?  Yes, it gets you closer to third for a close pick-off attempt at third base.  The odds of this happening are far, far less than everything else I listed above.

 

Thanks, you saved me some time.