Mask-It Sports (Powder Coating)

[Thunderheads]

1 minute ago, ArchAngel72 said:

On the wiki page I see no verbiage that states its actually lighter than vinyl or other coatings. They just seem to list the better properties of it in how it can be laid on thick or thin with no drips runs or other issues

 

No one said it's "lighter" ....... IT DOES NOT CAUSE ANYTHING TO BE HEAVIER!   The only situation where your mask would get lighter is if you sent your mask to Tony that already has a vinyl coating on it, he takes the coating off, then powder coats the mask.   The mask would get lighter because you don't have a plastic coating over the steel bar any longer.

[wolfe_man]

15 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

On the wiki page I see no verbiage that states its actually lighter than vinyl or other coatings. They just seem to list the better properties of it in how it can be laid on thick or thin with no drips runs or other issues

 

Would you consider taking my word for it then? 

I have had several done and it does not make them weigh any noticeable amount more.  Most masks have some sort of coating on them to start with to prevent oxidation/rust.  The powder-coating person (our preferred one on UE is Tony @ Mask-It Sports) removes the first coating by media blasting, then lays a new coat and sealant on the frame. 

The end result is a far better looking mask that should last for years under normal usage.  

For the record, a powder-coat is WAY lighter than a vinyl-dipped frame.  Vinyl adds probably close to a pound more than a powder-coat.  I've removed the vinyl on probably 5-6 masks strictly for the purpose of making them lighter.  Several other members on here can also attest to this being true.  If necessary, we may even be able to get an affidavit drawn up and notarized.

 

Edit:  FWIW - there are posts on UE already with "stock" mask weights like you are referencing from UA.  The Nike Ti for example is right at a pound with pads & harness as one of the lightest frames available today. The AS mag, 4000 steel and +POS Zro-G also are really close to this weight with pads & harness.  When you boil it all down, most frames (without vinyl dip) are within 6-8 ounces of each other for the most part.  What really makes us decide is looks, brand, pricing, etc. more than weight in all honesty.   I do know guys that prefer the dip though, just because they want the extra weight to absorb an impact. To each their own.

[ArchAngel72]

8 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

No one said it's "lighter" ....... IT DOES NOT CAUSE ANYTHING TO BE HEAVIER!   The only situation where your mask would get lighter is if you sent your mask to Tony that already has a vinyl coating on it, he takes the coating off, then powder coats the mask.   The mask would get lighter because you don't have a plastic coating over the steel bar any longer.

Well then I guess what I am looking for is an actual comparison   weight before treatment as it is stock

 

then weight it after 

would be interesting to see what a plastidip'd mask weighed too.

 

To be blunt I do not think it would be much of a difference nor would I honestly have an issue about wearing it if it were heavier

 

I'm being ANAL and asking for actual #'s 

for example I can get #'s that the mask alone weighs 16.8 ounces from UA..

Sorry I'm just nerding out on this and looking for those #'s is all. 

https://memes.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/c65bd4d4-fa68-4a82-a28d-99738caf69d1/text

[Thunderheads]

10 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Well then I guess what I am looking for is an actual comparison   weight before treatment as it is stock

 

then weight it after 

would be interesting to see what a plastidip'd mask weighed too.

 

To be blunt I do not think it would be much of a difference nor would I honestly have an issue about wearing it if it were heavier

 

I'm being ANAL and asking for actual #'s 

for example I can get #'s that the mask alone weighs 16.8 ounces from UA..

Sorry I'm just nerding out on this and looking for those #'s is all. 

https://memes.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/c65bd4d4-fa68-4a82-a28d-99738caf69d1/text

border-lining obnoxious .....

What mask do you use?

[ArchAngel72]

40 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

border-lining obnoxious .....

What mask do you use?

AS  FM4000MAG BK/BK

My 1st mask was a champro lightweight steel mask.   Did the job but I got my bell wrung 2 times with it.  after some reading I decided to up my equipment.   I got a kit off amazon thought it would be good for LL and then learned LL catchers are not at all that good at catching

 

[ArchAngel72]

56 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

Would you consider taking my word for it then? 

Edit:  FWIW - there are posts on UE already with "stock" mask weights like you are referencing from UA.  The Nike Ti for example is right at a pound with pads & harness as one of the lightest frames available today. The AS mag, 4000 steel and +POS Zro-G also are really close to this weight with pads & harness.  When you boil it all down, most frames (without vinyl dip) are within 6-8 ounces of each other for the most part.  What really makes us decide is looks, brand, pricing, etc. more than weight in all honesty.   I do know guys that prefer the dip though, just because they want the extra weight to absorb an impact. To each their own.

I will take your word that it is lighter.. my mind wants #'s though something I can hold onto.. 

 

And thank you for the fwiw  that last bit about plastidip.   I also wonder what the absorption rate on an impact is for plastidip. It probably does have some sort of cushion effect to it.  Its probably not much but possibly measurable.  Then again every little bit matters I would think, as they all add up.

 

 

[Thunderheads]

1 minute ago, ArchAngel72 said:

AS  FM4000MAG BK/BK

 

ok .... I have a black framed FM4kMAG also.   If you read the powdercoat wiki, it says it's an alternative (more durable) than paint, correct?  So, it's a suface coating like paint, but it's not.  Think of it as a different form of having a mask painted.  Google it .....you can find people saying that powder coating weighs less 

[wolfe_man]

24 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

And thank you for the fwiw  that last bit about plastidip.   I also wonder what the absorption rate on an impact is for plastidip. It probably does have some sort of cushion effect to it.  Its probably not much but possibly measurable.  Then again every little bit matters I would think, as they all add up.

I'm not sure the dip itself is really effective at reducing the impact, but I do believe the weight itself helps to absorb it.  If you think of a shotgun blast, you can see, hear and feel the percussion causing recoil into your shoulder.  The lighter the gun stock (fiberglass for example), the more recoil - the heavier the stock (solid walnut), the less impact transfers to your shoulder.  Of course, many choose to help recoil by adding a butt-stock rubber pad - and now we see the benefit of adding pads to your frame (or F3 springs for that matter).

I believe this principle to be the same with mask weight.   Heavier mask seems to absorb more energy, lighter mask feels better while wearing, but then you must have good pads or that energy transfers to your head/neck instead of the mask taking it.

[ArchAngel72]

15 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

I'm not sure the dip itself is really effective at reducing the impact, but I do believe the weight itself helps to absorb it.  If you think of a shotgun blast, you can see, hear and feel the percussion causing recoil into your shoulder.  The lighter the gun stock (fiberglass for example), the more recoil - the heavier the stock (solid walnut), the less impact transfers to your shoulder.  Of course, many choose to help recoil by adding a butt-stock rubber pad - and now we see the benefit of adding pads to your frame (or F3 springs for that matter).

I believe this principle to be the same with mask weight.   Heavier mask seems to absorb more energy, lighter mask feels better while wearing, but then you must have good pads or that energy transfers to your head/neck instead of the mask taking it.

 

I was merely thinking of plasti dip probably having a lot more elasticity to it than powder coat with knowing and seeing how plastidip kinda peels off once its compromised and how hard powder coat gets there is probably also some slight benefit there just noodling on it.. 

 

[wolfe_man]

33 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

I was merely thinking of plasti dip probably having a lot more elasticity to it than powder coat with knowing and seeing how plastidip kinda peels off once its compromised and how hard powder coat gets there is probably also some slight benefit there just noodling on it.. 

 

I suppose it's possible.

For me, we're talking about a hit to the mask what, one or two times a year?  So the added weight really isn't that much of an asset when you think it over, in my humble opinion.  The main thing I would say is important on a mask always comes back to one thing... the pads.  Buy the best pads and your brain will thank you when the inevitable wild pitch/foul ball happens.

[ArchAngel72]

6 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

I suppose it's possible.

For me, we're talking about a hit to the mask what, one or two times a year?  So the added weight really isn't that much of an asset when you think it over, in my humble opinion.  The main thing I would say is important on a mask always comes back to one thing... the pads.  Buy the best pads and your brain will thank you when the inevitable wild pitch/foul ball happens.

Still using the stock ones that came with it but bought 2 sets of TW one in tan and one in black  just am wondering will they actually be better based on the tech put into the stock pads.. plastic up against the bar inside and etc..

 

[wolfe_man]

Just now, ArchAngel72 said:

Still using the stock ones that came with it but bought 2 sets of TW one in tan and one in black  just am wondering will they actually be better based on the tech put into the stock pads.. plastic up against the bar inside and etc..

The AS MAG pads are top-notch.  I'd keep them over the TW personally.  TW is very good in warm/hot weather, but the AS MAG pads are good in all weather temps.

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

On the wiki page I see no verbiage that states its actually lighter than vinyl or other coatings.

Vinyl or synth-rubber dips are what we refer to as Additive Coating. We are actually jacketing the item, and encasing it in a substance that carries its own mass and volume. So, not only is the diameter (thickness) of the mask bars increasing, but the overall mass (weight) of the mask increasing as well. Equate it to you slapping a sticker upon your skin. Stickers can carry differing weights and thicknesses themselves.

Conventional paint is a topical, surface treatment. Adherence of the paint is entirely dependent on the surface condition of the item. Then, the majority of the paint binds to itself to give the perception of coverage. The paint is entirely dependent upon how prepared the surface is, physically (sanded, textured) or chemically (thinned, stripped, or primed). Equate it to you drawing a graphic on your skin with a marker. Eventually, that marker will fade, wear off, or wash off.

Powder coating is actually molecular binding. The item is prepped and primed, but then an electrical charge is sent into the item, and the very molecules are “opened up”. The paint, or more appropriately the powder coating, is emulsified and shot through a gun with a cathode on the nozzle, and given the opposite electrical charge. The particles are actually attracted to the item, and molecularly bind to it. The charge is removed and the item is then baked to cure and set. Equate this to... well, this is the closest you’ll get to a tattoo (which, technically, is dye sublimation, but I digress).

Because aluminum and titanium behave differently, on an electrical level (in fairness, it’s on an oxidizing level), an even more effective process for coloring those items is anodizing. Here, the item is bathed in acid to strip away the oxidization layer (skin), and then transferred to a bath that contains the desired tint. A charge is applied to accelerate the process, and the oxidation of the item is allowed, this time with the tint being an integral part of the result. The only drawback to anodization is the cost, since because of the need for large quantities of acids and solvents, it is often cost-prohibitive to do one-offs or small batches.

This segues into hydrographics. Here, the item is prepped, just like in anodizing. A graphical film is then suspended in a fluid (depending on the shop doing it, they may place the graphic first, or after the item is already in the bath) and then the item is dropped into (or lifted through) the graphical film. The polarizing charges meld, and the film binds to the item.

”Worst”, crudest, and cheapest? Vinyl dip. This is why we loathe it so.

[bluetick48]

4 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

@bluetick48 .... 2 questions:

1) Do I see Ray's harness on that FM4000MAG?

2) Can you maneuver that mask (taking it off and on) just as if you were only wearing a standard cap?

Fill us in with a full review please!   

@Thunderheads 

1.yes that is Ray’s harness on there  

2. I erred on the side of my harness straps not being long enough to accommodate the new skull, so I ordered three new harnesses. Much to my surprise, the harness I currently have fits over the skull the same as my normal hat. Although it may not be that way for everyone, but I’ve got three extra harnesses laying around now. 

[Thunderheads]

5 minutes ago, bluetick48 said:

@Thunderheads 

1.yes that is Ray’s harness on there  

2. I erred on the side of my harness straps not being long enough and ordered three new harness.....I didn’t need them though, the harness fits over the skull the same as my normal hat. It may not be that way for everyone, but I’ve got three extra harnesses laying around now. 

Ok, but from a functionality standpoint .... mask-on/mask-off .... work the same as a 'cap'?   I just keep noticing the MLB guys wearing a skully and their mask and skully comes off all in one piece ....  

[bluetick48]

10 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Ok, but from a functionality standpoint .... mask-on/mask-off .... work the same as a 'cap'?   I just keep noticing the MLB guys wearing a skully and their mask and skully comes off all in one piece ....  

Same on/off function for me as a normal cap. My skull never moves when removing my mask or adjusting it for that matter. Also I saw some folk asking about sunglasses. I have several styles of Oakleys and all of them fit “better to me” with the skull. I’m a really really BIG fan of the skull. It’s really lightweight and from my standpoint it doesn’t feel much differently from a normal wool hat. I’m actually hoping it’ll be cooler because it gets quite steamy down here in the Deep South. 

[Thunderheads]

2 minutes ago, bluetick48 said:

Same on/off function for me as a normal cap. My skull never moves when removing my mask or adjusting it for that matter. Also I saw some folk asking about sunglasses. I have several styles of Oakleys and all of them fit “better to me” with the skull. I’m a really really BIG fan of the skull. It’s really lightweight and from my standpoint I doesn’t feel much differently from a normal wool hat. I’m actually hoping it’ll be cooler because it gets quite steamy down here in the Deep South. 

Well that is EXACTLY the news I was hoping to hear, thanks!   It begs the question however (for me) .... if the skully works so well with a mask just like the cap, then why do the MLB guys take them both off at the same time like a HSM?  

[wolfe_man]

20 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

It begs the question however (for me) .... if the skully works so well with a mask just like the cap, then why do the MLB guys take them both off at the same time like a HSM?  

Max has addressed this before.  The MLB guys wear their masks tight because to them a mask on the ground is a failed mask, so they wear them very tightly.  They probably are unable to take the skully off without taking the mask along with it.  It's almost a helmet the way they wear it now.

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

AS  FM4000MAG BK/BK

DO NOT USE Team Wendy pads in this mask!

I love, admire, promote, and stump for Team Wendy pads to be used in every mask on the market... except two: the Force3 Defender and All-Star FM4000/5000 (both the Steel and the Magnesium).

The Defender needs a firm base so that the springs can function properly. Force3 has already placed Kevlar and EVA foam within their pads, complemented by Memory foam for fit and sizing purposes. If Team Wendy’s Zorbium was infused into these pads, I’d be hard pressed to figure out what good it would do, if even being activated by an impact. 

In regards to the All-Star FM4000 & 5000, the reliance on mask geometry actually challenges or prohibits the use of Team Wendys... as they are currently designed. The FM4K is meticulously designed and shaped to curve around the face. Like a stealth aircraft, this is for maximum deflection, and presenting the smallest perpendicular surface to an oncoming impact vector. Accordingly, it and its pads need as much stand-off distance as possible. In fact, the Magnesium’s bars are so thin, an impact behaves like a knife cleaving into the underlying pad... the energy is heavily localized. TW’s Zorbium and All-Star’s standard LUC pads can only do so much before the bar compresses the pad down and “bottoms out” against your face.

In response to this, at Jonathan Lucroy’s suggestion, a plastic plate was installed within the lower jaw pad of the LUC set, and this works to laterally engage more pad and distribute the energy of an impact throughout the pad volume. If TWs were to receive this same treatment, they’d be ideal. However, we cannot expect TW to accommodate, since baseball is far, far down on their list of priorities.

Know who should have this as a priority? The same company that just threw some “memory foam” into a fabric tube, and call it a mask pad.

Do more, do better... do something.

[Rock Bottom]

12 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

ok .... I have a black framed FM4kMAG 

How does the original black color hold up? Will it need powder coating quickly like the steel silver? (Not sure how the new matte black steel hold up.)

[BT_Blue]

 @ArchAngel72 ill trade you my Wilson Dynalite in just about any configuration I can make for your MAG. If that doesn't work. I do have it for sale if you want it as a backup.

[Thunderheads]

On 9/4/2020 at 10:52 PM, Rock Bottom said:

How does the original black color hold up? Will it need powder coating quickly like the steel silver? (Not sure how the new matte black steel hold up.)

No issues so far!

[ArchAngel72]

On 9/4/2020 at 10:58 PM, BT_Blue said:

 @ArchAngel72 ill trade you my Wilson Dynalite in just about any configuration I can make for your MAG. If that doesn't work. I do have it for sale if you want it as a backup.

No thx  sticking with my mag.  the angle deflection stuff on it got me turned on to it and now reading and learning more and more about it I am well gonna keep it.. Just my AS S7 chest that I just got am I looking to maybe get rid of and update to the newer pads ..  SOOOO wishing I had waited another yr ..sigh  No buyers remorse but those new ones look so much more fitting and conforming.  Thank you for the offer but I will hang on to the mask.   Guess I have 2 sets of TW pads to use on the champro now  whoops..

 

[wolfe_man]

56 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

No issues so far!

The clear coat is the key here.  The better the clear coat, the less fading.  A light clear coat wears off fast, removing the shine and what many perceive as the "coloring".   I think All Star has gotten better at their coating - and black matte doesn't fade nearly as fast as shiny silver would.

[wolfe_man]

For those that may be on the fence for sending a mask off to Tony@Mask-It Sports... don't wait, do it now!  The man is truly a master craftsman! 

Below are three I just got back in the mail today from him and I couldn't even put pads on them yet before I shared how beautiful they are.  The pics cannot do them justice, very sharp masks and they even feel better now in my hand thanks to his clear coat!

I had him do one in black matte, gun metal (darker grey one) and brushed aluminum (think brand-new Nike Ti color).  I may send him my others now for a sky blue metallic a la @MadMax's and possibly a navy matte for high school.  Or I may try a wrap this time around, but it cost more.

I fully endorse Tony's work. I had seen some of his stuff on here and even in person before today, but these are my first ones that he has done and I can't be more happy!