Unique FPSR CWS

[johnnyg08]

 

[Velho]

Luckily it hit R1 in the helmet

[Thunderheads]

I'm not 100% sure in OBR, but ....... here and NFHS, that's an easy one

[Biscuit]

In NCAA, pop ups are allowed. My gut tells me, yeah, this should be INT, but I don't have my rule book with me, and I'm struggling to think of what phrase I would use to defend this call. What're y'all using? 

[Thunderheads]

6 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

In NCAA, pop ups are allowed. My gut tells me, yeah, this should be INT, but I don't have my rule book with me, and I'm struggling to think of what phrase I would use to defend this call. What're y'all using? 

Pop ups are allowed in NCAA .... at the base.... this slide happened way before the base and he popped up interfering with the throw (I'm assuming that would work?) 🤔

[Velho]

15 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

Pop ups are allowed in NCAA .... at the base.... this slide happened way before the base and he popped up interfering with the throw (I'm assuming that would work?) 🤔

Are you saying that same slide but at the base with same pop up & same throw off the dome would not be INT?

[noumpere]

6 hours ago, Velho said:

Are you saying that same slide but at the base with same pop up & same throw off the dome would not be INT?

iirc, NCAA used to NOT have the "pop up slide at the base" rule.  Then some coach(es) indicated that it was safer to allow the runner to pop up at the base rather than have the runner's lead foot be stopped abruptly and the force of the rest of the body be pushing on the leg / knee.  So the pop-up slide at the base was added.

 

In the play indicated -- if the runner had been at the base then it would just be play on.

[Thunderheads]

8 hours ago, Velho said:

Are you saying that same slide but at the base with same pop up & same throw off the dome would not be INT?

No, I didn't say that.  Plus, ... if the play happens at the base, you have a different scenario as well.   See @noumpere's response ....

[Velho]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

8 hours ago, Velho said:

Are you saying that same slide but at the base with same pop up & same throw off the dome would not be INT?

iirc, NCAA used to NOT have the "pop up slide at the base" rule.  Then some coach(es) indicated that it was safer to allow the runner to pop up at the base rather than have the runner's lead foot be stopped abruptly and the force of the rest of the body be pushing on the leg / knee.  So the pop-up slide at the base was added.

 

In the play indicated -- if the runner had been at the base then it would just be play on.

 

18 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

8 hours ago, Velho said:

Are you saying that same slide but at the base with same pop up & same throw off the dome would not be INT?

No, I didn't say that.  Plus, ... if the play happens at the base, you have a different scenario as well.   See @noumpere's response ....

 

Maybe I'm being thick but @noumpere said that same pop-up slide at the base with throw off R1 is not INT. Or am I missing the point?

[johnnyg08]

Here's the rule if it helps with the discussion on this play...FWIW, I think there are some valuable things to discuss here. 

 

[Richvee]

6 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Here's the rule if it helps with the discussion on this play...FWIW, I think there are some valuable things to discuss here. 

 

IMO, the best written FPSR of the 3 codes. 

Personal side note- Eduardo Perez, Please shut up and go away. 

[The Man in Blue]

On 6/20/2024 at 8:41 AM, Biscuit said:

In NCAA, pop ups are allowed. My gut tells me, yeah, this should be INT, but I don't have my rule book with me, and I'm struggling to think of what phrase I would use to defend this call. What're y'all using? 

 

Interference. 

Coach, explain to me how it wasn't.

Boom.  Mic drop.  

 

He met the slide requirement, but then he interfered.  Pretty easy.

[Biscuit]

16 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

Interference. 

Coach, explain to me how it wasn't.

Boom.  Mic drop.  

 

He met the slide requirement, but then he interfered.  Pretty easy.

Well, not quite. Because for this to be run of the mill interference, we would need intent. This is a thrown ball, and for a retired runner continuing to run the bases (I guess you could argue that popping up isn't continuing to run the bases, and if that's your argument I'll buy it) to be called for interference, you need intent. 

[MadMax]

Ya know, there’s a question that isn’t being asked, and its inclusion would be a significant factor… 

Why did he (R1) slide short (“Buh! Obviously, Max, to avoid contacting the fielder and being hit by the throw, buh!”), but then pop-up there??  
If he runs to the right (OF), he’s fine; if he runs to the left (IF), he’s fine; if he slides short, like he does, and stays on the ground, he’s (I fervently believe) fine. But he pops up there? Just then? 
🤔

There’s a purpose to it, if only to distract and disrupt the infielder’s throw to 1B. Instinctual reaction is to duck, or to get low and stay low. He’s popping up like a cardboard cutout at a shooting range. 

If this on any level of college baseball beneath postseason D-1, I don’t think this gets looked at, or challenged. The presence of the “big cameras” spurs a coach to challenge it. 

[The Man in Blue]

@MadMax, that was going to be my response to @Biscuit’s statement on intent.  If popping up right there and then is not the epitome of intent, I don’t know what is.

Do you want him to carry a sign?

[Velho]

14 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

@MadMax, that was going to be my response to @Biscuit’s statement on intent.  If popping up right there and then is not the epitome of intent, I don’t know what is.

For complete clarity, did we bottom out that sliding into the bag on this play and then popping in the same fashion is INT?

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

For complete clarity, did we bottom out that sliding into the bag on this play and then popping in the same fashion is INT?

See (b) in the NCAA rules posted above.  They say contact is excusable if it happens on top of the bag (and specifically mention pop-up slides).  Assuming the logic is the fielder isn’t doing his job right if he is hanging around on the bag?

I don’t call NCAA, so that was interesting to me.

[Richvee]

3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

See (b) in the NCAA rules posted above.  They say contact is excusable if it happens on top of the bag (and specifically mention pop-up slides).  Assuming the logic is the fielder isn’t doing his job right if he is hanging around on the bag?

I don’t call NCAA, so that was interesting to me.

I call college, and the “ logic” of the wording doesn’t concern me. It’s pretty straight forward. 
A pop up slide “ON THE BAG” is legal. The only logic I need to use here is. 
IF - he slides and pops up prior to the bag and interferes, or alters the play

THEN - It’s a FPSR violation. 

[Kevin_K]

Yesterday @Richvee and I had a nice back and forth on this as we prepared for our game together and we had some disagreement in our routes, we both ended in the same place.

I'll preface by saying in real time without the benefit of replay, I'd probably call this as a FPSR violation. With the benefit of hindsight, I don't think this is a FPSR violation.  I think it's more likely straight up retired runner interference because of the way the rule is phrased.

The rule dictates the following

• On any force play, the runner, in the vicinity of the base, must slide on the ground before the base and in a direct line between the two bases. Those parameters were met

The rule goes on to say that all of the following are illegal:

• The runner slides or runs out of the base line in the direction of the fielder;
• The runner uses a rolling or cross-body slide and either makes contact with or alters the play of a fielder;
• The runner’s raised leg makes contact higher than the fielder’s knee when in a standing position;
• The runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg; or 
• The runner illegally slides toward or contacts the fielder even if the fielder makes no attempt to throw to complete a play

None of these circumstances were met.

Therefore, a strict interpretation of the rule suggests that this is retired runner's interference more so than a force play slide rule violation. R1 popped up purposefully. Reasonable people can infer intent when actions are purposeful. This allows for calling interference on the retired runner for interfering with the throw.

• Rule 5.3: No offensive team members, either in or out of the lineup, shall physically or verbally hinder, confuse or impede any defensive player who is attempting to make a play.
• Penalty - 2) If a runner or batter-runner, who has been put out or obstructed, hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner, such runner shall be declared out because of a teammate’s interference.

At the end of the day, both BR and R1 are out and the inning is over. If you take the high road and I take the low road, we both end up in Scotland.

 

[Tborze]

11 hours ago, Richvee said:

I call college, and the “ logic” of the wording doesn’t concern me. It’s pretty straight forward. 
A pop up slide “ON THE BAG” is legal. The only logic I need to use here is. 
IF - he slides and pops up prior to the bag and interferes, or alters the play

THEN - It’s a FPSR violation. 

I thought you didn’t need INT on a FPSR?  <blue font

[Tborze]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

Yesterday @Richvee and I had a nice back and forth on this as we prepared for our game together and we had some disagreement in our routes, we both ended in the same place.

I'll preface by saying in real time without the benefit of replay, I'd probably call this as a FPSR violation. With the benefit of hindsight, I don't think this is a FPSR violation.  I think it's more likely straight up retired runner interference because of the way the rule is phrased.

The rule dictates the following

• On any force play, the runner, in the vicinity of the base, must slide on the ground before the base and in a direct line between the two bases. Those parameters were met

The rule goes on to say that all of the following are illegal:

• The runner slides or runs out of the base line in the direction of the fielder;
• The runner uses a rolling or cross-body slide and either makes contact with or alters the play of a fielder;
• The runner’s raised leg makes contact higher than the fielder’s knee when in a standing position;
• The runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg; or 
• The runner illegally slides toward or contacts the fielder even if the fielder makes no attempt to throw to complete a play

None of these circumstances were met.

Therefore, a strict interpretation of the rule suggests that this is retired runner's interference more so than a force play slide rule violation. R1 popped up purposefully. Reasonable people can infer intent when actions are purposeful. This allows for calling interference on the retired runner for interfering with the throw.

• Rule 5.3: No offensive team members, either in or out of the lineup, shall physically or verbally hinder, confuse or impede any defensive player who is attempting to make a play.
• Penalty - 2) If a runner or batter-runner, who has been put out or obstructed, hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner, such runner shall be declared out because of a teammate’s interference.

At the end of the day, both BR and R1 are out and the inning is over. If you take the high road and I take the low road, we both end up in Scotland.

 

There are different penalties though, correct?

One is TOP and one is TOI? 

 

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, Tborze said:

I thought you didn’t need INT on a FPSR?  <blue font

Depends on the reason for the call -- some of the factors require contact / INT; some do not.