Play at first is a force play?

[Steven Tyler]

The situation being discussed is a ground ball and out at first is a force play or force out whichever. Their logic is the batter is forced to run to first base. My understanding is that a force is when a baserunner is forced to the next when the B/R becomes a runner. However, found this in the glossary. Still doesn't mean what some are saying is force out/play.
 

Force Play

Definition

A force play occurs when a baserunner is no longer permitted to legally occupy a base and must attempt to advance to the next base. The defense can retire the runner by tagging the next base before he arrives, though not if the defensive team first forces out a trailing runner. In that instance, the force play is removed and the defense must tag the remaining runners to retire them.

First base tends to have the most force plays, as batters are eligible to be forced out at first any time they put the ball into fair territory and it is not caught in the air.

From the rule book.

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base because of the batter becoming a runner. Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the "force" situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, the ball hit sharply to the first baseman who touches the bag, and the batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and the runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball that had been returned to first, the play at second was a force-out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score. Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. The batter flies out. Two out. The runner on third tags up and scores. The runner on first tries to retouch before the throw from the fielder reaches the first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in the umpire's judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.

[I updated this with Grammarly.....much easier to read and understand]

Edited April 6, 2024 by Steven Tyler
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[Jimurray]

All three codes mistakenly refer to the force at 1B in isolated caseplays or rules. You can live with it being called a force. 

[Biscuit]

By a technical reading, no it's not a force play. But, off the top of my head, I can't think of a single rule that applies to force plays that doesn't apply ti the batter runner running to first. I can think of rules that apply to the BR running to first that don't apply to forced runners, but not the other way around.

[Senor Azul]

The 2021-2022 NCAA rules clarified that their FPSR does not apply to the batter-runner.

Also, under the original 1845 written rules runners could be put out by possessing the ball and stepping on the base the runner was advancing to. They changed the rule in 1848 to only first base could a runner be retired in that way. The definition of a force play didn't come along till the early 1860s. 

The out at first by just touching the base has been almost always the way game has been played.

 

[Jimurray]

4 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

The 2021-2022 NCAA rules clarified that their FPSR does not apply to the batter-runner.

Inferring that there is a force at 1B. "This rule pertains to a force-play situation at any base, regardless of the number of outs, except it does not apply to the batter-runner at first base."

[Jimurray]

6 hours ago, Biscuit said:

 I can't think of a single rule that applies to force plays that doesn't apply to the batter runner running to first. 

OBR fixed it's problem but the other two codes differ in how to put the batter out at 1B vs how to put the forced runner out.

[johnnyg08]

Batter runner isn't forced to run anywhere. It would be in his best interests to attempt to advance. 

By definition it's not a force out/force play. It's a bit pedantic to correct those who call it a force out...but by definition it is not. 

The more important instance to distinguish is that an appeal is 100% not a force out/force play. 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

The more important instance to distinguish is that an appeal is 100% not a force out/force play. 

It can be.

[Steven Tyler]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

It can be.

How so? The batter can run into the dugout, and remove the force at 2B. No runner at 1B, no force at any base.

[Steven Tyler]

On 4/6/2024 at 9:13 AM, Biscuit said:

By a technical reading, no it's not a force play. But, off the top of my head, I can't think of a single rule that applies to force plays that doesn't apply ti the batter runner running to first. I can think of rules that apply to the BR running to first that don't apply to forced runners, but not the other way around.

No runner at 1B = No force at any base.

[noumpere]

13 minutes ago, Steven Tyler said:

How so? The batter can run into the dugout, and remove the force at 2B. No runner at 1B, no force at any base.

My response was to what I quoted: an appeal is 100% not a force out/force play".

 

 

[Velho]

quack = 🦆

[MadMax]

19 minutes ago, Steven Tyler said:

The batter can run into the dugout, and remove the force at 2B.

Why is the Batter running into the dugout? Did he put the ball in play? Did he receive a 4-ball BB? Was there a U3K? Or, did he get stung by a hornet and need his epi-pen?? If he’s still the Batter, then his at-bat hasn’t ended until he’s been put Out, by putting the ball in play, BB (IBB, HBP), 3K, or INT of the “batter variety”. 

Batter-Runner, sure. 

But if we’re dicing details, then words & terms matter. 

[Jimurray]

25 minutes ago, Steven Tyler said:

How so? The batter can run into the dugout, and remove the force at 2B. No runner at 1B, no force at any base.

2017 MLBUM added clarification that abandonment does not remove the force.

[Steven Tyler]

On 4/6/2024 at 11:28 AM, Senor Azul said:

The 2021-2022 NCAA rules clarified that their FPSR does not apply to the batter-runner.

Also, under the original 1845 written rules runners could be put out by possessing the ball and stepping on the base the runner was advancing to. They changed the rule in 1848 to only first base could a runner be retired in that way. The definition of a force play didn't come along till the early 1860s. 

The out at first by just touching the base has been almost always the way game has been played.

 

That makes sense to me. They fought a bloody Civil War over the OBR.

Good to know. Thank you for the history lesson.

[Steven Tyler]

On 4/8/2024 at 11:42 AM, Jimurray said:

2017 MLBUM added clarification that abandonment does not remove the force.

Thanks, Jimurray.

[Steven Tyler]

On 4/8/2024 at 11:31 AM, MadMax said:

Why is the Batter running into the dugout? Did he put the ball in play? Did he receive a 4-ball BB? Was there a U3K? Or, did he get stung by a hornet and need his epi-pen?? If he’s still the Batter, then his at-bat hasn’t ended until he’s been put Out, by putting the ball in play, BB (IBB, HBP), 3K, or INT of the “batter variety”. 

Batter-Runner, sure. 

But if we’re dicing details, then words & terms matter. 

Is that your final answer? If it is, go worship at your mini-shrine to Angel Hernandez.

[Steven Tyler]

On 4/6/2024 at 7:18 AM, Jimurray said:

All three codes mistakenly refer to the force at 1B in isolated caseplays or rules. You can live with it being called a force. 

I can, but there were several that believe a routine 4-3 groundout is a FORCE PLAY. I hit the payload explaining what an actual force play is. The guys that watch baseball on TV were swarming like flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz.

[Steven Tyler]

On 4/8/2024 at 11:29 AM, noumpere said:

My response was to what I quoted: an appeal is 100% not a force out/force play".

 

 

Thanks for the input, but that wasn't what I was specifically asking.

[Vegas_Ump]

Back in the day, this rubric was explained to me this way:

A runner who must leave his base because the batter becomes a batter-runner is FORCED.  So that's easily defined as a force play.  Elsewhere in the rules, it describes that no runs can be scored if the third out is a force play OR the batter-runner is retired before he legally attains 1B.  [The practical application is that the BR is forced at 1B when he puts the ball in play, but wait!  There's more!] There are a few more plays where a BR can be retired before getting to 1B:  yes, he can hit the ball into play, there can be a U3K, he can be retired on appeal for missing the bag, etc.  The special definition of a Batter-Runner has meaning in these kinds of plays.  Once the BR has achieved a base safely, and then there is relaxed play, only then does his status change from Batter-Runner to just a Runner.

Post Script:  At the risk of being non-responsive to the OP and duplicative, you will often see a caught fly ball and then a play on a runner who has not tagged up properly thought of (wrongly) as a "force play" because the offending runner must return to the base to tag up.  That's an appeal play and scoring depends on timing rules, AND an advantageous 4th out can be executed to eliminate runs scoring.  I know all the umps here know that, but you need to be pre-loaded to that explanation when it happens!  (And sports casters don't help either!)

Mike

Las Vegas

[Velho]

2 hours ago, Steven Tyler said:

a routine 4-3 groundout is a FORCE PLAY

🦆

[Tborze]

Troll warning!!

Good to see you back Tyler 

[Steven Tyler]

On 4/10/2024 at 1:45 PM, Tborze said:

Troll warning!!

Good to see you back Tyler 

If you're trying to make a POINT stick your head in a pencil sharpener. GEEZE!!!!

 

And BTW, I do read here from time to time. I just don't post unless I have a pertinent question or answer.