Steven Tyler

If you're trying to make a POINT stick your head in a pencil sharpener. GEEZE!!!! And BTW, I do read here from time to time. I just don't post unless I have a pertinent question or answer.

Thanks for the input, but that wasn't what I was specifically asking.

I can, but there were several that believe a routine 4-3 groundout is a FORCE PLAY. I hit the payload explaining what an actual force play is. The guys that watch baseball on TV were swarming like flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz.

Is that your final answer? If it is, go worship at your mini-shrine to Angel Hernandez.

Thanks, Jimurray.

That makes sense to me. They fought a bloody Civil War over the OBR. Good to know. Thank you for the history lesson.

No runner at 1B = No force at any base.

How so? The batter can run into the dugout, and remove the force at 2B. No runner at 1B, no force at any base.

The situation being discussed is a ground ball and out at first is a force play or force out whichever. Their logic is the batter is forced to run to first base. My understanding is that a force is when a baserunner is forced to the next when the B/R becomes a runner. However, found this in the glossary. Still doesn't mean what some are saying is force out/play. Force Play Definition A force play occurs when a baserunner is no longer permitted to legally occupy a base and must attempt to advance to the next base. The defense can retire the runner by tagging the next base before he arrives, though not if the defensive team first forces out a trailing runner. In that instance, the force play is removed and the defense must tag the remaining runners to retire them. First base tends to have the most force plays, as batters are eligible to be forced out at first any time they put the ball into fair territory and it is not caught in the air. From the rule book. A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base because of the batter becoming a runner. Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the "force" situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, the ball hit sharply to the first baseman who touches the bag, and the batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and the runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball that had been returned to first, the play at second was a force-out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score. Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. The batter flies out. Two out. The runner on third tags up and scores. The runner on first tries to retouch before the throw from the fielder reaches the first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in the umpire's judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts. [I updated this with Grammarly.....much easier to read and understand]

I was thinking more along the lines that R1 wasn't forced, so was a time play. I would have taken the safe play and appealed R3 first

All I know is they have screwy. They award a runner 1st base on obstruction after they gained 1st. I read the rule and case plays, and I didn't really see anything to support that in the wording. I tried to get books from Indy, but they act as if they never heard of that.

Old topic, but it did snow on Galveston Beach, and STICK. Hopefully, you didn't lose power, and pipes burst. I enjoyed sitting by the fireplace though with no outages.

Case play from FED girls. R1 and R3. 1 out. Batter hits fly ball to LF which is caught. Both runners leave early. Defense appeals @ 1B. R1 out. Defense appeals @ 3B. runner out and no run scored. Isn't this a time play and R3 scores? Could anyone post some advantageous 4th out situations also?

It's been longer than that. I had torn my meniscus, and working a DH was becoming almost impossible. I could work one game, but couldn't run very well for a few days after. Got it fixed, but doctor advised against umpiring. Anyway, I was a very good softball player, so I got my Jones playing Senior Softball, and played on World Championship teams. I recall something like this in a discussion. I asked about a batted ball being deflected out in foul territory, and was told to award 2 bases. I also recall being told a batted ball was dead when it became dead. Perhaps our rules guy (state rules guy for several years) wanted it to be that way. Really don't recall all the details. Might have talking about a deflected thrown ball.

Screwed up. I do remember a game when Paul Lo Duca was with the Mets, and Hunter W. was doing the plate. There was a play at the plate, and the runner was ruled safe. Senor Lo Duca immediately disagreed, and proceeded to throw the ball to the ground in a raging display of disgust. While this was going on the runner at 1B, John Smoltz, took off for 2B. However, he was returned to 1B. I asked Hunter why, and he told me that playing action had ended. Meanwhile, the ball had rolled halfway to the backstop.