Positioning in B for Steals (90' fields)

[834k3r]

For the upcoming season, I'm considering moving back to a deep B position (heels within a few inches of the dirt) in situations where stealing is likely (based on team's demonstrated aggressiveness, game situation, etc). My thought is if I'm in deep B, I basically only have to wait for the ball to pass me and pivot to see the play at 2B. The downside is that in deep B, I'd be more straight-lined for potential pickoffs at 1B, so I'd have to modify my approach for those plays.

Is potentially being straight-lined on plays at 1B worth the better look at 2B? What do you fellas think?

[noumpere]

It's not one or the other.  Start in shallow B and you have time to move back WHEN the steal happens.

 

(If you start in Deep B like you suggest, you don't have time to move sufficiently on a pick-off)

[SeeingEyeDog]

17 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

For the upcoming season, I'm considering moving back to a deep B position (heels within a few inches of the dirt) in situations where stealing is likely (based on team's demonstrated aggressiveness, game situation, etc). My thought is if I'm in deep B, I basically only have to wait for the ball to pass me and pivot to see the play at 2B. The downside is that in deep B, I'd be more straight-lined for potential pickoffs at 1B, so I'd have to modify my approach for those plays.

Is potentially being straight-lined on plays at 1B worth the better look at 2B? What do you fellas think?

Beaks, I like where your heads at with this...I have been experimenting with some of this myself. And not just dropping to deep B but, even working a few steps in from the neutral position if I am reading that pickoffs are likely. Yes, yes, yes...we can absolutely get ourselves crossed up and be back in deep B anticipating the steal when now there's a pickoff and we don't have a good angle on the tag/touch.

So, I moderate things a bit...start in the neutral B position and maybe move a step or two forward or back based on my current read, foregoing the deep B. I will also take a drop step with my right leg as soon as the pitcher delivers so that I am ready to go to 2B if necessary but I can still move forward to get a back pick at 1B from F2 post-pitch.

I've also been working on moving a little closer to 2B from B when plays take me there. I may have been burned on two tag plays at 2B this summer where the ball is caught by F4 and then a tag was attempted on R1's right side. Neither were swipe tags or I may have seen the wiggle of the glove following the tag. So, just focusing on the release from F2, anticipating the point where it will be caught and then trying to reverse wedge a view on the tag coming out of B.

~Dawg

[Jimurray]

57 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

For the upcoming season, I'm considering moving back to a deep B position (heels within a few inches of the dirt) in situations where stealing is likely (based on team's demonstrated aggressiveness, game situation, etc). My thought is if I'm in deep B, I basically only have to wait for the ball to pass me and pivot to see the play at 2B. The downside is that in deep B, I'd be more straight-lined for potential pickoffs at 1B, so I'd have to modify my approach for those plays.

Is potentially being straight-lined on plays at 1B worth the better look at 2B? What do you fellas think?

You are unable to drop back, pivot and end up in deep B as the throw occurs?

[MadMax]

I concur with @noumpere… by using standard B (in 2-man), your window is much larger, as the thrown ball passing you is your trigger to turn. Drop step (R), cross over step (L), look in at the ideal angle so as to see ball arrive, fielder receive & tag, and R1 begin a slide in. 

Ideally, we should not be (finally) looking at R1 already at or in close proximity to the bag, nor should we be missing how & where the fielder (F4, especially) has set up to receive. 

Our window to see it, because of the passing throw, is that much briefer / smaller the further towards B-deep we go, alá 3- (as U3) & 4- man (as U2). 

[SeeingEyeDog]

4 hours ago, Jimurray said:

You are unable to drop back, pivot and end up in deep B as the throw occurs?

Sure...and I submit deep B is not where I should take that play from so, I need every step and every positional advantage I can get.

~Dawg

[834k3r]

Appreciate everyone's thoughts and words on this. I'd much rather have these conversations than those about...those other threads.

[noumpere]

13 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Sure...and I submit deep B is not where I should take that play from so, I need every step and every positional advantage I can get.

~Dawg

Depends on the specific play -- and the throw.  The good news is that the throw will take you to the right spot.

 

If the throw is at you, you won't be able to move so close the the line between hoe and second AND the play will likely be a swipe tag.  The throw will force yo to deep B.

 

And, if the throw is true, your drop step and crossover can be right toward second -- where the play will likely be a tag on the foot / hand right at the base.

[Tborze]

Deep C!?

Best of both worlds! 

[wolfe_man]

I had an ugly EJ last year due to my U2 being too deep in B and missed the pick-off at 1B.   I overturned his safe call - after he came to me (it was THAT obvious to the fans, the Defensive HC and bench... and me... player never made it back to base by a foot) - and the Head Offensive Coach lost his mind.  He had to go for prolonged arguing and the fans let me have it - and followed me to my car post-game.  First time I've ever left a game without undressing, I felt that unsafe.  

For my sake, please stay in regular B unless you have advanced movement or training... or have telepathy and are 100% sure that they are indeed stealing. 

 

[JonnyCat]

When done properly, starting in the normal B position works well. As they taught us in pro school, "starting position is critical." If you're not starting in the right position pre-pitch, and you don't do the proper footwork, then everything else, such as positioning to get the right angles, doesn't work. I find that the MiLB mechanics work very well for the amateur umpire.

On the 90' field with R1 only, the BU should start in the "B" position, "50/50" point, midway between the back edge of the pitchers mound and 2B cutout. Also standing on the "tangent", the imaginary line from plate through edge of pitchers mound. (Interestingly enough, in 2015 when I attended MiLB umpire school, they did not refer to BU positioning as "A, B, and C." It was "starting position with no runners on, on the 1B side of the working area, or on the 2B side of the working area." Not sure if that's changed. Lest I digress.)

Anyway, to take a steal at 2B, start in the proper position, when you feel a steal, stand up. Then take a drop step with your right foot, but keep your eye on the catcher. As the throw comes from the catcher, turn with the throw and take 2-3 steps towards the right corner of the 2B cutout.

Your first drop step is crucial. You don't want to move directly towards 2B. Instead you want to move towards the right corner of the 2B cutout. The first drop step will take you in the direction of where you want to go. You have to open that gate wide to move into the proper position. Too shallow of an initial drop step will take you towards the bag, or even worse, towards the left side of the cutout. I can't emphasize enough the importance of the first drop step. It takes some practice to get a feel for it. I see too many umpires not open the gate enough on the initial drop step, and they end up moving into the wrong position to take the play. Take a wide drop step. Your right foot should be pointing towards the base-path, rather than 2B. After that initial step, you can take 2-3 more steps, and even take a read step at the end to adjust depending on where the tag goes.

What I also see with base umpires in the 2 man system, is they often don't start in the proper "B" or "C" positioning. If you're not starting in the correct spot, pre-pitch, then you can't move into the right position to get the proper angles on any play.

Anyway, I hope I'm explaining it properly. It does work very well, IMO. No need to start in "deep B" or anywhere else. Start in the proper "B" position and do the right footwork, and it all comes together.

[kylehutson]

Start more shallow than you think you should. It gives a great view of the pickoff.

@JonnyCat nailed the footwork part

I'm old and fat, and even when I was young, I was slow. You can get those steps back to get a good view of the play at 2nd.

In the last year I had only one time where I didn't feel like I was in a good position. R1 made no noise running and no fielders yelled "going!" or made any other indication that R1 was stealing. The catcher came up gunning and I thought "gee he's being awfully aggressive getting the ball back to the pitcher... Aw crap." And even then I was able to get a look at the play, just not from as optimal of a viewpoint as I would have liked.

[JonnyCat]

46 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

"gee he's being awfully aggressive getting the ball back to the pitcher... Aw crap."

Too funny!

[SeeingEyeDog]

13 hours ago, noumpere said:

Depends on the specific play -- and the throw.  The good news is that the throw will take you to the right spot.

 

If the throw is at you, you won't be able to move so close the the line between hoe and second AND the play will likely be a swipe tag.  The throw will force yo to deep B.

 

And, if the throw is true, your drop step and crossover can be right toward second -- where the play will likely be a tag on the foot / hand right at the base.

All of this is good as a theory and @JonnyCat went appropriately deeper on the mechanics. That was very well done Jonny. Thank you for that.

We can read the vector/direction/angle of the throw...yes. We can somewhat read the depth of the throw...and that's where the challenge is in the 2 man system. We have all seen true-looking throws that either die and drop in front of the runner or sail and sometimes then caught by the fielder and a swipe tag is attempted in such a way that we are flatlined (as I outlined above...). There's no magic wand. Sometimes, we do everything we are supposed to do and there's a late nuance...and then we just have to umpire. We have to look for every advantage to be our best on every play and I just think sometimes the standard B position as a starting position with R1 only is perhaps not the best position to begin some plays from.

~Dawg

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

All of this is good as a theory and @JonnyCat went appropriately deeper on the mechanics. That was very well done Jonny. Thank you for that.

We can read the vector/direction/angle of the throw...yes. We can somewhat read the depth of the throw...and that's where the challenge is in the 2 man system. We have all seen true-looking throws that either die and drop in front of the runner or sail and sometimes then caught by the fielder and a swipe tag is attempted in such a way that we are flatlined (as I outlined above...). There's no magic wand. Sometimes, we do everything we are supposed to do and there's a late nuance...and then we just have to umpire. We have to look for every advantage to be our best on every play and I just think sometimes the standard B position as a starting position with R1 only is perhaps not the best position to begin some plays from.

~Dawg

Would you expound on your mechanics. Grass line between 1B  and 2B has worked, for me, being that I can still get there at my age and being that most MLB, MiLB and NCAA umpires do it even in 3 or 4 man with the usual exceptions. Can you not get to that spot from proper B? We have some that can’t but the reason is their mobility. Luckily they and we know so they start further back and give up a better view of the at pickoff at 1B. Most do not start in proper B and give up getting to deep B because they also don’t have the mobility. They also cheat to avoid a hard hit ball in that proper B position. I don’t blame them. 

[noumpere]

10 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

All of this is good as a theory and @JonnyCat went appropriately deeper on the mechanics. That was very well done Jonny. Thank you for that.

We can read the vector/direction/angle of the throw...yes. We can somewhat read the depth of the throw...and that's where the challenge is in the 2 man system. We have all seen true-looking throws that either die and drop in front of the runner or sail and sometimes then caught by the fielder and a swipe tag is attempted in such a way that we are flatlined (as I outlined above...). There's no magic wand. Sometimes, we do everything we are supposed to do and there's a late nuance...and then we just have to umpire. We have to look for every advantage to be our best on every play and I just think sometimes the standard B position as a starting position with R1 only is perhaps not the best position to begin some plays from.

~Dawg

Yes -- you can come up with plays where it would be better to start in other than B.  But, you won't know those plays are going to happen until after the fact and you will miss other, more common, plays if you don't start in B.

 

All umpiring (at least until we get to 10 umpires of so) is some sort of compromise.  The goal isn't to get to the best possible position; it's to get to the best position possible.

[MadMax]

21 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I had an ugly EJ last year due to my U2 being too deep in B and missed the pick-off at 1B.

In 2-man, this position is taken primarily due to one of two reasons, lack of training (naïvety) notwithstanding – 

1. Over-eagerness on SA at 2B (and likely “burned” or exposed as “slow or lazy”)
2. Fear (of getting hit)

Granted, guys who are complete novices to umpiring pick up the bulk of their information from watching TV, where they see an umpire (hey, lookatthatwillya) at 2B… in B-deep. Even if they watch a game in person, and they get the general hint that he needs to be in “B”, as soon as he gets on a 60-90 in person (or worse, a 50-70), and realizes how close that is (to the plate), the Fear kicks in. 

Little League doesn’t help things, either, because the typical IP for BU with R1, and “closed bases”, is B-beyond. So, there is a quantity of lower-skilled (skilled, not lack of effort) umpires who are muddling around, doing games (50-70, 60-90) and getting the reps in, but without any structure as to why we stand there, or how we move there. And their use of… “improvised” positions come down to self-preservation of some variety (physical, pride, etc.)… except when it blows up, and blows up big. 🤯

[wolfe_man]

7 minutes ago, MadMax said:

In 2-man, this position is taken primarily due to one of two reasons, lack of training (naïvety) notwithstanding – 

1. Over-eagerness on SA at 2B (and likely “burned” or exposed as “slow or lazy”)
2. Fear (of getting hit)

Granted, guys who are complete novices to umpiring pick up the bulk of their information from watching TV, where they see an umpire (hey, lookatthatwillya) at 2B… in B-deep. Even if they watch a game in person, and they get the general hint that he needs to be in “B”, as soon as he gets on a 60-90 in person (or worse, a 50-70), and realizes how close that is (to the plate), the Fear kicks in. 

Little League doesn’t help things, either, because the typical IP for BU with R1, and “closed bases”, is B-beyond. So, there is a quantity of lower-skilled (skilled, not lack of effort) umpires who are muddling around, doing games (50-70, 60-90) and getting the reps in, but without any structure as to why we stand there, or how we move there. And their use of… “improvised” positions come down to self-preservation of some variety (physical, pride, etc.)… except when it blows up, and blows up big. 🤯

This guy is a good umpire, we've worked together many times and this was a D1 Varsity contest.  I think he just was over eager and a bit lazy on this one.  He was literally one step left of the middle of the diamond and maybe 8-10' from second base anticipating the steal.  When F1 threw over, he was completely blocked out and had to guess at the call at 1B.  The runner never made it back to the bag, not even close.  He sat there on his hands and knees for a second and then realizing he was called safe, he quickly grabbed the bag and jumped up.  But I'm sure from the angle of the play, my partner only saw heels and butt on the pickoff attempt because he was out of position.  He came to me quickly and told me immediately that he was blocked out and needed help to his credit.

But you are exactly right, this leads to big blow-ups when we try to just do what the MLB guys do without understanding why they can do it.   It's almost always better to have angle over position.   We can't have both and if we try to win on the position battle, we will lose the angle one.  I was 95-100' away and I had him out with 100% surety - because I had the proper angle and he was out of position. 

[JSam21]

You can start deeper and have to work a whole lot harder to get a look at the quicker developing play (pick off) or you can start shallow and have to work harder to get a look at the slower developing play. 
 

The choice is yours, but I can tell you with 100% certainty which one I’m going to use when working the two umpire system.

[JSam21]

On 11/17/2023 at 9:54 AM, MadMax said:

In 2-man, this position is taken primarily due to one of two reasons, lack of training (naïvety) notwithstanding – 

1. Over-eagerness on SA at 2B (and likely “burned” or exposed as “slow or lazy”)
2. Fear (of getting hit)

Granted, guys who are complete novices to umpiring pick up the bulk of their information from watching TV, where they see an umpire (hey, lookatthatwillya) at 2B… in B-deep. Even if they watch a game in person, and they get the general hint that he needs to be in “B”, as soon as he gets on a 60-90 in person (or worse, a 50-70), and realizes how close that is (to the plate), the Fear kicks in. 

Little League doesn’t help things, either, because the typical IP for BU with R1, and “closed bases”, is B-beyond. So, there is a quantity of lower-skilled (skilled, not lack of effort) umpires who are muddling around, doing games (50-70, 60-90) and getting the reps in, but without any structure as to why we stand there, or how we move there. And their use of… “improvised” positions come down to self-preservation of some variety (physical, pride, etc.)… except when it blows up, and blows up big. 🤯

If you don’t feel at least a little uncomfortable in B or C then you’re probably too far back.