Players needed to start a game, players needed to continue a game...

[SeeingEyeDog]

Hey brothers,

     I had this come up today in a league that I don't normally work. We allowed a LL Seniors game to continue with 8 players and I am not entirely certain we should have. Can someone please provide citations on this for LL, FED and OBR, please? (For the sake of completism, if you want to include an NCAA citation...that's fine, too...)

~Dawg

[Senor Azul]

Little League rules 4.16 and 4.17 answer your questions.

NCAA rules 5-5a and 5-12g are the applicable rules.

FED rule 4-4-1f is the applicable rule.

OBR rule 7.03b answers your questions.

[Lou B]

Little League allows Local Leagues an "option" to allow teams to play with 8 players.  The option must be included in their Local Rules.  It is not up to the manager(s) the decision is up to the Board of Directors.

[JonnyCat]

Is this Fall Ball and not regular season? Probably Fall Ball as LL regular season for 2023 is over. I don't think it would be anything else but Fall Ball.

Lou is correct, you can start and finish a LL game with 8 players, if adopted by the local leagues BOD.

If it's Fall Ball (or winter-ball), I wouldn't even worry about it. It's basically just practice for the next season. Let them play, let them borrow defensive players from the other team, let them have a good time.

Work the game, collect your check, and everyone is happy!

[The Man in Blue]

11 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Little League rules 4.16 and 4.17 answer your questions.

NCAA rules 5-5a and 5-12g are the applicable rules.

FED rule 4-4-1f is the applicable rule.

OBR rule 7.03b answers your questions.

In case you don’t have access to look those up …

 

Fed: Must start with 9, must finish with 8.

 

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

On 10/22/2023 at 12:52 PM, JonnyCat said:

Work the game, collect your check, and everyone is happy!

Yes...and no. I don't mean to get off on a rant here...

The reason I asked the question (and I am currently researching local modifications, too...) is this is youth ball. My concerns are safety and the potential umpire liability. In my litigious market, if an umpire were to remain on the field for a game in which the requisite number of players weren't present and someone gets hurt...now the umpires are getting phone calls and emails about why the game was allowed to continue and they were still on the field. Now maybe it ends with phone calls and emails. Maybe it continues to a lawyer's office or a courtroom. I ain't got time for that. Why open ourselves up to additional and unnecessary scrutiny if we don't have to?

I'm not looking to screw or take advantage of clients, players, coaches and or parents. One game fee that I earn because I went to the field, stayed 5 minutes and came home because they didn't have enough players is not going to make me or break me.

In closing, we can't mechanically clear people off of a baseball field. Absent the requisite players, we announce the game is over and leave the premises. What they do or don't do on that baseball field at that point is no longer the umpire's concern. If they want to stay on the field and scrimmage or practice or pull weeds...it's not my concern anymore.

~Dawg

[JonnyCat]

3 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

The reason I asked the question (and I am currently researching local modifications, too...) is this is youth ball. My concerns are safety and the potential umpire liability. In my litigious market, if an umpire were to remain on the field for a game in which the requisite number of players weren't present and someone gets hurt...now the umpires are getting phone calls and emails about why the game was allowed to continue and they were still on the field. Now maybe it ends with phone calls and emails. Maybe it continues to a lawyer's office or a courtroom. I ain't got time for that. Why open ourselves up to additional and unnecessary scrutiny if we don't have to?

That never happens. Cite me one example of litigation or liability because a game wasn't "official." I hear this crap all the time, "we're not allowed to work games unless they are official." Where did that come from? I could lose my house, or bunnies will die if I work a non "official" game.

What, we're not allowed by law to work practice games for money? Call it a practice or scrimmage game and work it. Has no one in the history of youth sports ever worked a pre-season practice game for money? I do it all the time for HS and LL.

It's not like you forced them to play the game. If they don't have enough players, just call it a practice or scrimmage game and if they agree to play, then play the game. The organizational insurance will cover regular practices, scrimmages, practice games, "official" games, etc. LL insurance covers all of those and recognizes them as valid LL events. 

Just because it's not an "official" game, you can't have an umpire?

And what the F*#K is an "official" game anyway? It's "official" only within the context of the rules. Games can have meaning in the standings or not. If they're played under the umbrella of the governing organization that sporting event, it doesn't matter if it's an "official" game or not.

[noumpere]

Some insurance (NASO?) covers you in these situations (generally speaking -- I didn't compare the exact language to the exact situation).

[SeeingEyeDog]

@JonnyCat, if they can hang it on the umpire...they will. If you want to take that unnecessary risk on, that's your choice. Please let me make mine.

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

One umpire?  THE GAME HAS TO BE PLAYED!!!  Somebody HAS to do it!

6 to 8 coaches, 20 sets of parents and grandparents, two umpires, 14 kids on one team ... but only 8 more on another team ... Screw you, I'm going home, thanks for the check.

Sorry man, that is some BS.

There is no unnecessary risk to you as the umpire because one team has 8 players.  The game may not be able to be played under the sanction that they contracted you for, but you are an INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR ... don't forget that as long as it is convenient to the organization.  The game may have to go down in the sanction's books as a forfeit (or whatever), but if you are going to take a check, it should be for services rendered.  If somebody tears an ACL or pops a shoulder, it isn't because a team had 8 players.  If somebody really tried to sue you, it would never hold up in court.  They would have to prove negligence ... allowing them to play is not negligence.  You just can't call it an "official" game under BOB'S OFFICIAL LEAGUE MAJOR BASEBALL ALLIANCE OF THE AMERICAS or whatever alphabet you are calling for.

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@JonnyCat, if they can hang it on the umpire...they will. If you want to take that unnecessary risk on, that's your choice. Please let me make mine.

~Dawg

Poking at you here, Dawg ... 

You should take your mask off and stare at them until they produce a 9th player.  😋

[DevildogUmp]

YMMV, but Little League rules specifically dictate that a game may not start with less then 8 player per team (1.01 NOTE). First rule in the book. Therefore, if there are less then 8 players on a team, it is not a game, and I am going home. 

[Senor Azul]

From the 2022 Little League RIM

The Note in LL rule 1.01 also tells us that it is a Local League Option to start and play a game with 8 players. Then it tells us to see rules 4.16 and 4.17.

[Jay R.]

Chiming in on the side conversation about whether to work a game if it's not official.

I don't think it's black and white. The league my kids are involved in is laid back and less structured. Being somewhat rural it's not uncommon for games to start with fewer than the required number, and it's understood that it's all developmental anyway. I've umpired games there with as few as six on one side (usually the other team supplies a couple outfielders) and even 8-on-7 isn't uncommon.

On the other hand I umpired in a competitive Little League chapter with a tight schedule on Saturdays and strict rules about what was and wasn't a game. If a team got to fewer than 8 players, the game was over. If I had a good relationship with the coach and time allowed, I might call a couple scrimmage innings. But I also had no trouble saying I was leaving when adults started wanting to play with or against their kids---at that point they can call their own game and the likelihood of injury and thus lawsuits went up.

Ymmv.

[JonnyCat]

4 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@JonnyCat, if they can hang it on the umpire...they will. If you want to take that unnecessary risk on, that's your choice. Please let me make mine.

~Dawg

Make your choice all you want, I don't care, do whatever you want. But you are perpetuating a myth. You're not liable because it's not an "official" game. You can work practice games, scrimmage games, pickup games, or whatever game you want. You've entered a contract with whomever to work a game. 

It doesn't matter if the game is played under the "official" rules of whatever organization. LL, and every other organization let's practice or scrimmage games happen without adhering to the rule-set 100%.

It's simply not true that you are liable if someone gets hurt during a "non-official" game.

Never in the history of ever has someone been liable for umpiring a "non-official" game. Please cite me some examples to disprove my statement.

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, DevildogUmp said:

YMMV, but Little League rules specifically dictate that a game may not start with less then 8 player per team (1.01 NOTE). First rule in the book. Therefore, if there are less then 8 players on a team, it is not a game, and I am going home. 

True, it cannot be an official game and count in the standings. However, it can be a practice or scrimmage game, and you can work that game, collect a check, and not be liable for any injuries. 

No where does it state in the LL rule book or Operations Manual that scrimmage games are not allowed. Nor does it prohibit umpires from working scrimmage or practice games.

[SeeingEyeDog]

@JonnyCat, I don't know how it works in the rest of the world...in my market, if I show up for a game and it's a forfeit because a team didn't have enough players? My partners and I depart the field and we collect a full fee on that game. That's in all of our client contracts.

~Dawg

[Tborze]

20 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

That never happens. Cite me one example of litigation or liability because a game wasn't "official." I hear this crap all the time, "we're not allowed to work games unless they are official." Where did that come from? I could lose my house, or bunnies will die if I work a non "official" game.

What, we're not allowed by law to work practice games for money? Call it a practice or scrimmage game and work it. Has no one in the history of youth sports ever worked a pre-season practice game for money? I do it all the time for HS and LL.

It's not like you forced them to play the game. If they don't have enough players, just call it a practice or scrimmage game and if they agree to play, then play the game. The organizational insurance will cover regular practices, scrimmages, practice games, "official" games, etc. LL insurance covers all of those and recognizes them as valid LL events. 

Just because it's not an "official" game, you can't have an umpire?

And what the F*#K is an "official" game anyway? It's "official" only within the context of the rules. Games can have meaning in the standings or not. If they're played under the umbrella of the governing organization that sporting event, it doesn't matter if it's an "official" game or not.

Shhhh…it

Well there goes my excuse for not wanting to do extra innings in a blowout

 

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@JonnyCat, I don't know how it works in the rest of the world...in my market, if I show up for a game and it's a forfeit because a team didn't have enough players? My partners and I depart the field and we collect a full fee on that game. That's in all of our client contracts.

~Dawg

And that is perfectly fine. If it was in the contract, so be it. However, that was not my point.

On 10/24/2023 at 3:44 AM, SeeingEyeDog said:

My concerns are safety and the potential umpire liability. In my litigious market, if an umpire were to remain on the field for a game in which the requisite number of players weren't present and someone gets hurt...now the umpires are getting phone calls and emails about why the game was allowed to continue and they were still on the field. Now maybe it ends with phone calls and emails. Maybe it continues to a lawyer's office or a courtroom. I ain't got time for that. Why open ourselves up to additional and unnecessary scrutiny if we don't have to?

My point was, you can work a game that's not "official" without liability. You can chose to work those games as long as both sides agree it is a practice or scrimmage game. You're not forcing them to play. And odds are, they want to play are are more upset that the umpires walked away with pay and no game.

Your contract says not to work games that aren't "official." Fine, but officials can work games that aren't "official" if they want to, in almost any instance. There's no more or less liability in an "official" or "non-official" game.

[Lou B]

18 hours ago, DevildogUmp said:

 

??? 

No playing with less than 8 in competitive minors and up.  

[Vegas_Ump]

On 10/24/2023 at 3:44 AM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Yes...and no. I don't mean to get off on a rant here...

The reason I asked the question (and I am currently researching local modifications, too...) is this is youth ball. My concerns are safety and the potential umpire liability. In my litigious market, if an umpire were to remain on the field for a game in which the requisite number of players weren't present and someone gets hurt...now the umpires are getting phone calls and emails about why the game was allowed to continue and they were still on the field. Now maybe it ends with phone calls and emails. Maybe it continues to a lawyer's office or a courtroom. I ain't got time for that. Why open ourselves up to additional and unnecessary scrutiny if we don't have to?

I'm not looking to screw or take advantage of clients, players, coaches and or parents. One game fee that I earn because I went to the field, stayed 5 minutes and came home because they didn't have enough players is not going to make me or break me.

In closing, we can't mechanically clear people off of a baseball field. Absent the requisite players, we announce the game is over and leave the premises. What they do or don't do on that baseball field at that point is no longer the umpire's concern. If they want to stay on the field and scrimmage or practice or pull weeds...it's not my concern anymore.

~Dawg

Dawg:

Your instincts are wise!  Without documented rules to the contrary, the coaches cannot PIROOMA a rule to play with less than the required number of players to constitute a legal game.  Under the rule set you use, should a player be injured, the umpire could be held liable for conducting game outside of the rules (and the implied safety consequences thereof.)

Lately, LL (in particular) did try to let some provision get into the playing rules (subject to local ratification) that allowed handling contingencies like this.  This was a response to COVID lockdown years ago when fewer players were available.  Before that, they were very strict on 9 players, period!

Mike

Las Vegas

[Jimurray]

6 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Dawg:

Your instincts are wise!  Without documented rules to the contrary, the coaches cannot PIROOMA a rule to play with less than the required number of players to constitute a legal game.  Under the rule set you use, should a player be injured, the umpire could be held liable for conducting game outside of the rules (and the implied safety consequences thereof.)

Lately, LL (in particular) did try to let some provision get into the playing rules (subject to local ratification) that allowed handling contingencies like this.  This was a response to COVID lockdown years ago when fewer players were available.  Before that, they were very strict on 9 players, period!

Mike

Las Vegas

So if an umpire kicks a rule in a game and that has been protested and continues the game as is done and the protest is later judged valid the umpire is liable for the sprained ankle the inning after the protest because the game wasn't "legal" after the protest. Much ado about nothing but in the scheme of things walking off the field in a "suspended" game or continuing to call a scrimmage is up to you and will not go to the Supeme Court.

[JonnyCat]

6 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Under the rule set you use, should a player be injured, the umpire could be held liable for conducting game outside of the rules (and the implied safety consequences thereof.)

This is a myth. 

There is no more or less liability for working an "official" game, versus a practice or scrimmage game.

As an umpire, you are free to leave the field or work the game. There is no increased liability for working a "modified" game. Working practice or scrimmage games is done at all levels that I know about and work or have worked, from LL, travel-ball, HS, Low level college summer ball, and D1 inter-squad games. All of those practice or scrimmage games I've worked have modified the rules in some way. In fact, many "official" games I have worked have used modified rules, as well. Am I in danger of increased liability for working those games?

I don't know where this myth came from, nor why it continues to be perpetuated. Unless someone can cite me some examples, or case law, of someone getting sued over working a "non- official" game, I'll continue to call it what it is. A myth.

[JonnyCat]

7 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Lately, LL (in particular) did try to let some provision get into the playing rules (subject to local ratification) that allowed handling contingencies like this.  This was a response to COVID lockdown years ago when fewer players were available.  Before that, they were very strict on 9 players, period!

Yes, that is true. But LL allows you to work practice or scrimmage games with borrowed players without increased liability. Just because the game isn't "official" and can't count in the standings, doesn't mean the kids can't still play, nor does it mean the umpire can't work that game either. The umpire can still work the game, the liability does not increase or decrease.

[Vegas_Ump]

12 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

This is a myth. 

There is no more or less liability for working an "official" game, versus a practice or scrimmage game.

As an umpire, you are free to leave the field or work the game. There is no increased liability for working a "modified" game. Working practice or scrimmage games is done at all levels that I know about and work or have worked, from LL, travel-ball, HS, Low level college summer ball, and D1 inter-squad games. All of those practice or scrimmage games I've worked have modified the rules in some way. In fact, many "official" games I have worked have used modified rules, as well. Am I in danger of increased liability for working those games?

I don't know where this myth came from, nor why it continues to be perpetuated. Unless someone can cite me some examples, or case law, of someone getting sued over working a "non- official" game, I'll continue to call it what it is. A myth.

Johnny:

What you say is a myth was actually preached by the Chief Umpire of Little League many years ago at clinics we had in Virginia.  Scrimmage or practice games don't count.  As volunteer umpires we were told not to officiate those games;  Little League's insurance would not cover you.  That being said, the likelihood of an injury to a player was significantly less.  No one was running pell-mell all the time.  So doing practice games was a good way to sharpen  your skills.

It ain't no myth!  That's what we--as volunteers--were told.  Now, paid umpires (and anyone in other leagues) probably have provisions in their contracts.  I'll grant that.  But for most of my 34 years as a volunteer umpire in LL, we were told never to accept an illegally constituted game (e.g., less than 9 to start, etc).  [And that situation I do have some experience with.  During the season the managers and parents have to get their players to the games and conduct the game in accordance with the rules.]

No one ever got into trouble for doing such kinds of practice games.  But I know of no injuries or jurisprudence resulting from any such games either.  So your statement about case law is moot!  Just working the game puts the risk on you.  But it's rarely happened if at all!  Before COVID it was clearly stated in the LL rule book what you had to have to start a game and what should happen if you go below 9 players.  Since then, some relaxation of that stance has happened.

You use a different set of rules?  Fine!  Go for it!  But any umpire at any level needs to know for what he may be liable if he allows rules to bend.  And maybe he's not liable at all!  Good for you!

Mike

Las Vegas