Players needed to start a game, players needed to continue a game...

[Vegas_Ump]

14 hours ago, Jimurray said:

So if an umpire kicks a rule in a game and that has been protested and continues the game as is done and the protest is later judged valid the umpire is liable for the sprained ankle the inning after the protest because the game wasn't "legal" after the protest. Much ado about nothing but in the scheme of things walking off the field in a "suspended" game or continuing to call a scrimmage is up to you and will not go to the Supeme Court.

Jim:

Gimme a break!  I'll give you a real example of jurisprudence gone awry.

In the 1990's there was a State LL Tournament in Virginia.  The umpires dutifully inspected all the equipment as required.  Later in the game, a pitcher took a line drive off his melon!  He was severely concussed and evacuated to a hospital.

The local newspaper headline said:  Umpires allow illegal bat; player taken to hospital with a concussion.

All bogus!  But the plate umpire was first on the list of potential defendants.

Now no lawsuit was ever filed, but you can see the risks that volunteer umpires take if there is ANY suspicions that a safety rule was violated.  Can you see a court case?  "What safety rules didn't you enforce?"  Might be totally irrelevant to the play, but it sets a tone of liability I was not willing to take as a volunteer umpire. 

My point is this:  If you allow an illegally constituted game to proceed, it is really unlikely that any injury will happen.  But if it does, the first point made by the plaintiff will be "So you allowed an illegal game to proceed?"  As a volunteer umpire,  I am not willing to take that risk.

Mike

Las Vegas

 

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Jim:

Gimme a break!  I'll give you a real example of jurisprudence gone awry.

In the 1990's there was a State LL Tournament in Virginia.  The umpires dutifully inspected all the equipment as required.  Later in the game, a pitcher took a line drive off his melon!  He was severely concussed and evacuated to a hospital.

The local newspaper headline said:  Umpires allow illegal bat; player taken to hospital with a concussion.

All bogus!  But the plate umpire was first on the list of potential defendants.

Now no lawsuit was ever filed, but you can see the risks that volunteer umpires take if there is ANY suspicions that a safety rule was violated.  Can you see a court case?  "What safety rules didn't you enforce?"  Might be totally irrelevant to the play, but it sets a tone of liability I was not willing to take as a volunteer umpire. 

My point is this:  If you allow an illegally constituted game to proceed, it is really unlikely that any injury will happen.  But if it does, the first point made by the plaintiff will be "So you allowed an illegal game to proceed?"  As a volunteer umpire,  I am not willing to take that risk.

Mike

Las Vegas

 

Why call it a illegal game? If you are umpiring a game and a coach protests an illegal player you might or might not have a regulation game. Do you have to stop umpiring when the game is protested. Are you liable for injuries in practice or scrimmages when you are training umpires in those events?

[BLarson]

I run into the same issue when it comes to run rules.

At the plate meeting we clearly state what the run rules are and what the time limit it.
15 after 3, 8 after 4 for a 6 inning USSSA game.
Either 1 hour 40 minutes or 1 hour 50 minutes...depending upon age and other factors.

I've had 1 team get run ruled in an hour or less, but both teams want to keep playing to get work in pitching, more at-bats, etc...

On one hand, I want to help them out but on the other hand we agreed on a set of parameters that ends the game.

 

[Lou B]

LL Rulebook, Appendix B - Safety Code for Little League

* Only players, managers, coaches and UMPIRES are permitted on the playing field during play and PRACTICE sessions.  (CAPS for Emphasis)

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, BLarson said:

I run into the same issue when it comes to run rules.

At the plate meeting we clearly state what the run rules are and what the time limit it.
15 after 3, 8 after 4 for a 6 inning USSSA game.
Either 1 hour 40 minutes or 1 hour 50 minutes...depending upon age and other factors.

I've had 1 team get run ruled in an hour or less, but both teams want to keep playing to get work in pitching, more at-bats, etc...

On one hand, I want to help them out but on the other hand we agreed on a set of parameters that ends the game.

 

 

I've had this experience, too.  My response is my partner and I will gladly stay and work some more, but that is going to cost another game check since the game we were contracted for is over.

[The Man in Blue]

As for lawsuits, please PM me if you are aware of any OR are an attorney/reporter/researcher who is able to find this Davy Jones' Locker of litigation or the boogeyman's bunch of mythological musings.  I have been kicking around the idea of writing a book.

I've never been able to verify the veracity of the verisimilitude of stories I have been told by assignors, state UICs, trainers, and others who wax poetic about the hazards of going against their word.  

Can't find anything about the 1990s illegal bat incident in Virginia . . . but that was back in the stone age of the internet.

[JonnyCat]

10 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

What you say is a myth was actually preached by the Chief Umpire of Little League many years ago at clinics we had in Virginia.

Just because Andy Konyar said it, doesn't make it true. If a team doesn't have enough players for a regulation game, it can now become a practice or scrimmage game, and umpires can work those games without increased liability. There is no more or less liability working an "official" game vs a scrimmage game. It happens all the time across may different organizations. If there was increased liability, then it would stand to reason that those organizations, (LL, PONY, HS) would expressly prohibit working scrimmage, practice, or inter-squad games.

Just because LL insurance doesn't cover you, does not mean that liability has increased and rests solely on the shoulders of an umpire. At worst, LL insurance won't cover you if you are injured (and this is debatable because you can work practice games), but your liability if someone should get injured does not increase or decrease. An umpire can be liable for all sorts of things in any game. But that liability doesn't change in a non-"official" game.

It is a myth. But if someone can provide me with definitive proof that liability is increased, I will admit I'm wrong. I'll need to see some official (pun intended) statements from some of these organizations, some case law, or some instances of actual litigation. 

[JonnyCat]

Double post

[JonnyCat]

10 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

In the 1990's there was a State LL Tournament in Virginia.  The umpires dutifully inspected all the equipment as required.  Later in the game, a pitcher took a line drive off his melon!  He was severely concussed and evacuated to a hospital.

But that would happen no matter what, whether that was a regulation game, or a non-"official" one. In LL, umpires are required to check gear, so they would naturally be the first ones accused of negligence. (One reason why I don't like that requirement to check gear in LL. It's just a CYA for LL and a way to deflect blame unto the umpire).

Umpires are subject to liability working any game, but the liability does not change for an "official" game vs a scrimmage game.

[Mudisfun]

I think there are several facets to this conversation, and veracity in several of the arguments, especially when discussing the LL angle. I agree with @JonnyCat that the chances for being sued, or being held liable for officiating a not official, but a scrimmage game, is extremely low. I carry not only sports coverage, but also maintain significant personal liability insurance, so in this highly unlikely event, I'm calling my agent and letting them deal with it.

If I am a volunteer umpire assigned to work a LL game and that game is deemed unable to commence, or complete for whatever legal rules reason, typically due to lack of players then I have no problem continuing to umpire a scrimmage or practice game. Assuming the game is not being called for weather, lighting or some other field condition which may actually increase the likelihood of injury to myself or the participants, then my liability has not changed. There should still be insurance coverage from LL based on the verbiage in the rule book which allows umpires for scrimmage games, although I would 

If you are a PAID umpire working a LL game, then right off the bat you are most likely not covered by any of LL's insurance since you are either an Independent Contractor, or if being paid by the league directly, an employee of the league. In this case, you need to defer to the agreement between yourself and your employing organization, and if that verbiage states that if a scheduled game is cancelled that you shall not work it, then you need to walk away. In this case, there is exposure to yourself as well as your organization as you have a potential breach of contract angle in litigation which could then expose you and your assigning group. 

The argument of 'to start or continue', at least to me, vastly depends on the venue we are working and the organization which we are representing. Would I go to a sanctioned HS game and then work it if the game could not proceed due to lack of players? No way. The game is over and I am heading to the parking lot. If the game was a scrimmage to start and I was being paid to officiate that and one team fell below the needed number of players and started borrowing from the other team? Of course I am continuing to work that as it is practice and that is what I was engaged to officiate.

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

On 10/27/2023 at 2:54 PM, BLarson said:

I run into the same issue when it comes to run rules.

At the plate meeting we clearly state what the run rules are and what the time limit it.
15 after 3, 8 after 4 for a 6 inning USSSA game.
Either 1 hour 40 minutes or 1 hour 50 minutes...depending upon age and other factors.

I've had 1 team get run ruled in an hour or less, but both teams want to keep playing to get work in pitching, more at-bats, etc...

On one hand, I want to help them out but on the other hand we agreed on a set of parameters that ends the game.

 

Check with your assigners and your league leadership...in my market, we would walk off the field as that game is now completed. If they want to continue to remain on the field after the umpires have left, that is their choice and we don't need to conduct a law briefing. "That's the ballgame."...and depart the field. It's not a negotiation and we continue to walk as they continue to ask questions.

~Dawg

[BLarson]

21 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Check with your assigners and your league leadership...in my market, we would walk off the field as that game is now completed. If they want to continue to remain on the field after the umpires have left, that is their choice and we don't need to conduct a law briefing. "That's the ballgame."...and depart the field. It's not a negotiation and we continue to walk as they continue to ask questions.

~Dawg

That's pretty much the advisement of our UIC.
Nobody said the can't continue playing...they just don't need an umpire to continue playing...your duty was completed as per parameters set at the plate meeting.

A lot of time there's not a lot of game management by the winning team until it's too late...stealing every base, advancing home on passed ball.