Foul-tip corner case in real life

[Velho]

I don't think this one has been on here.

https://usatodayhss.com/2023/fair-or-foul-wacky-high-school-baseball-play-sparks-debate

[SeeingEyeDog]

Wow! So, I have an out here but I absolutely sympathize with plate that he killed this a bit prematurely...

EDIT: Wait...on second thought...killing this play would hurt the defense, not the offense and the defense makes the play anyway. I'm grabbing the out regardless...

~Dawg

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

I don't think this one has been on here.

https://usatodayhss.com/2023/fair-or-foul-wacky-high-school-baseball-play-sparks-debate

Possibly because it shouldn't be even addressed on here. The unknowing will continue to be ignorant.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Wow! So, I have an out here but I absolutely sympathize with plate that he killed this a bit prematurely...

EDIT: Wait...on second thought...killing this play would hurt the defense, not the offense and the defense makes the play anyway. I'm grabbing the out regardless...

~Dawg

You need to "wait", edit again after reading the OP and the various codes rules. For extra credit read the current rules and what has changed in the last year or two.

[Velho]

The USA Today article has a number of flaws, so no one should follow it too closely (especially the poll results or twitter comments).

1) This was a high school game so they shouldn't be quoting OBR. NFHS reads:

SECTION 16 FOUL, FOUL TIP

ART. 2 . . . A foul tip is a batted ball that goes directly to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught by the catcher. It is a strike and the ball is in play.

2) They quote OBR incorrectly, though they do quote MLB.com correctly (webmaster behind the times since this was changed in 2019, or thereabouts). OBR reads:

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught, and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play.

OBR interpretation as written is not unequivocal regarding who can catch the ball after it comes off the catcher. 2021 MiLB Umpire manual states "the proper interpretation is that a foul tip must be caught by the catcher unassisted".

 

One thing I learned, that I hadn't considered and can see how it could be misapplied, is this: Let's imagine the catcher caught this ball instead of the pitcher and that there were runners on base. It would be easy to think pop-up and runners must tag. That would be incorrect. It's simply a theatrical foul-tip. Same as the normal foul-tip with a microsecond duration between contact with bat and catcher gloving it. No tag up necessary.

[Senor Azul]

I think the new MLB rule on what constitutes a foul tip took effect in 2020. The NCAA followed suit the next season. In addition to the high school rule posted by Mr. Velho, the FED has three supporting case plays (2.16.2 A, B and C).

[Mussgrass]

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught, and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play.

Does legally caught mean by the catcher? My mind tells me that it is not a foul tip if another play catches it. Does any rule set or interp specify the catcher? In one of the twitter comments someone mentioned it being a fair ball. That I know, this can never be a fair ball.

[ErichKeane]

I recall looking this up when a play came up, and a ball is foul/dead if it hits the catcher and isn't caught by the catcher.  I don't have the quote handy, I posted about it on facebook.

[ErichKeane]

NFHS Rule:

 

5-1-1:
The ball becomes dead immediately when:
d: a foul ball (2-16-1):
2: goes directly from the bat to the catcher's protector, mask, or person without first touching the catcher's glove or hand.

[834k3r]

3 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

NFHS Rule:

 

5-1-1:
The ball becomes dead immediately when:
d: a foul ball (2-16-1):
2: goes directly from the bat to the catcher's protector, mask, or person without first touching the catcher's glove or hand.

So I think what we're saying is OBR the OP is an out, but in FED it's a foul.

And people wonder how umpires get confused between rulesets.

[Jimurray]

6 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

So I think what we're saying is OBR the OP is an out, but in FED it's a foul.

And people wonder how umpires get confused between rulesets.

It's a foul ball in any code. Where do you get "we" are saying it's an out in OBR. There should be no confusion how the rulesets rule if you read their rules completely and keep up with changes. The problem arises when people, including some umps, never read the complete rules of the code and then quick scan to find the rule, wording, phrase that they can misapply. Some umps think their word of mouth, practical experience rules knowledge does not require a complete perusal of their code's rule book. Given that you can't retain all of that, what does result is a general confidence in making a call and knowing you can find reinforcement in the rule book because when you read a particular rule you had an "aha" moment as to how it is called on the field. Yes, other than some who retain all, some of our retention fades but what remains is a confidence in applying rules on the field.

[Velho]

10 hours ago, Mussgrass said:

Does legally caught mean by the catcher? My mind tells me that it is not a foul tip if another play catches it. Does any rule set or interp specify the catcher?

 

6 hours ago, 834k3r said:

So I think what we're saying is OBR the OP is an out, but in FED it's a foul.

I agree OBR is not as clear as possible. As stated above, this is clarified as meaning F2 must be the one to catch it directly in the 2021 MiLB Umpire manual which states "the proper interpretation is that a foul tip must be caught by the catcher unassisted".

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

 

I agree OBR is not as clear as possible. As stated above, this is clarified as meaning F2 must be the one to catch it directly in the 2021 MiLB Umpire manual which states "the proper interpretation is that a foul tip must be caught by the catcher unassisted".

Seems clear to me. The OP is a tipped batted ball, not a fly ball, that contacted the catcher in foul territory, becoming foul by definition. 

"5.09(a)(2) A third strike is legally caught by the catcher;

Rule 5.09(a)(2) Comment: “Legally caught” means in the catcher’s glove before the ball touches the ground. It is not legal if the ball lodges in his clothing or paraphernalia; or if it touches the umpire and is caught by the catcher on the rebound. If a foul tip first strikes any part of the catcher’s body or paraphernalia and is caught by hand or glove against his body or protector, before the ball touches the ground, it is a strike, and if third strike, batter is out."

[Velho]

47 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Seems clear to me. The OP is a tipped batted ball, not a fly ball, that contacted the catcher in foul territory, becoming foul by definition. 

"5.09(a)(2) A third strike is legally caught by the catcher;

Who said I was only addressing a 3rd strike?  

So where is the cite that says a foul tip off the catcher and directly caught by the pitcher isn't a live ball if for strike 1 or 2?

I'm soapboxing (fine, being a pain in the butt) because it's silly that it requires stringing multiple rules together to make something basic clear when simply adding "by the catcher" to "unless caught" would be unequivocal. Not much to ask of an almost $10B enterprise.

[JSam21]

20 minutes ago, Velho said:

Who said I was only addressing a 3rd strike?  

So where is the cite that says a foul tip off the catcher and directly caught by the pitcher isn't a live ball if for strike 1 or 2?

I'm soapboxing (fine, being a pain in the butt) because it's silly that it requires stringing multiple rules together to make something basic clear when simply adding "by the catcher" to "unless caught" would be unequivocal. Not much to ask of an almost $10B enterprise.

From the MLBUM…

[Velho]

8 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

From the MLBUM…

Thanks. That is the ruling. Same as the MiLBUM I cited.

Just not sure why OBR can't say that. 🤷‍♂️

I'll quit barking up this tree (for now at least, lol)

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

From the MLBUM…

But @Velho is asking why that is not clear in the rules. It is clear to me that a legally caught third strike also refers to any foul tip that goes to the catcher but he has a point if it has to be an interp.

[The Man in Blue]

A quick aside as I was looking for anything in the OBR '23 book ... 

A foul tip cannot hit the umpire.  The very definition ("goes directly to the catcher") prevents this.

 

OK, back on track ...

Does OBR have a provision that kills the ball like NFHS does?  I'm not finding it.

 

Which takes us back to 5.06(c)(7) which tells us another fielder (non-catcher) can indeed catch that ball, although it is dead because it ricocheted off the umpire.  But what about a foul ball which ricocheted off the catcher (because a ball that begins with the potential to be a foul tip but then is not caught is a ... yup ... foul ball)?  

 

Not saying I like this ... just looking for the support to NOT call this an out under OBR.  

I think the error in OBR is in calling a foul tip a ball that simply goes directly to the catcher (as opposed to the more restrictive definition of "to the catcher's hand or mitt") and is caught ... without stipulation as to who can catch it.  I would accept the interpretation that it must be the catcher because that feels like common sense ... until you include a provision calling a ball that ricocheted off the umpire and is caught by a fielder  a foul tip.  D'oh!

[834k3r]

A thought occurred to me:  would the OP scenario be analogous to a foul ball hitting the corner of the backstop padding, bouncing into the air, and flying into fair territory? If so, I think it's a simple foul ball. Same thing if a ball flies off the dugout facing (assuming it's not an OOP area)--if the batter hits a ball off the facing, the F3 can't catch it for an out.

[The Man in Blue]

The problem is that a pop fly, foul or fair, can still be caught for an out after it bounces off of another fielder.  The only other thing it can touch and NOT be a dead ball is the pitcher’s plate.  Anything else (fence, net, umpire, etc.) and it is a dead ball on the contact.
 

NFHS has a rule that states the catcher IS to be considered like the backstop … the ball is dead.  (See posts above.)

OBR does not seem to have that provision beyond the magical, mythical monster known as “interpretation.”  Since it isn’t a foul tip (that has to be caught) it is a foul ball, which now opens it up to being a foul ball that has been legally (?) caught in the air.

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, The Man in Blue said:

The problem is that a pop fly, foul or fair, can still be caught for an out after it bounces off of another fielder.  The only other thing it can touch and NOT be a dead ball is the pitcher’s plate.  Anything else (fence, net, umpire, etc.) and it is a dead ball on the contact.
 

NFHS has a rule that states the catcher IS to be considered like the backstop … the ball is dead.  (See posts above.)

OBR does not seem to have that provision beyond the magical, mythical monster known as “interpretation.”  Since it isn’t a foul tip (that has to be caught) it is a foul ball, which now opens it up to being a foul ball that has been legally (?) caught in the air.

It's not a fly ball off the bat, it can't be caught. It became foul upon hitting the catcher in foul territory without him legally catching it for a foul tip.

[The Man in Blue]

4 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

It's not a fly ball off the bat, it can't be caught. It became foul upon hitting the catcher in foul territory without him legally catching it for a foul tip.

I agree with that.  My point is NFHS makes that explicitly clear, whereas OBR doesn’t seem to agree.

And I am taking some exception to anything saying a “foul tip caught by the pitcher (or another fielder).”  That cannot happen.  (Again, agreeing with the outcome.)

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

It's not a fly ball off the bat, it can't be caught. It became foul upon hitting the catcher in foul territory without him legally catching it for a foul tip.

If I hit a screaming line drive, or a fly ball, to F5, who first touches the ball in foul territory, it's  a foul ball at that point, be definition...it was first touched in foul territory...if the ball deflects several feet in the air it can still be caught by any fielder.  It's not dead the moment it becomes foul.

Does the foul tip rule/interpretation make this distinction/explanation?

If I go by the rules, without accompanying guides, and I realize that a foul tip must be caught be the catcher, then the OP isn't a foul tip, but it is a foul ball, caught for an out.  Instinctively, that sounds wrong to me.  But I think letter of the rule says that.

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, beerguy55 said:

If I hit a screaming line drive, or a fly ball, to F5, who first touches the ball in foul territory, it's  a foul ball at that point, be definition...it was first touched in foul territory...if the ball deflects several feet in the air it can still be caught by any fielder.  It's not dead the moment it becomes foul.

Does the foul tip rule/interpretation make this distinction/explanation?

If I go by the rules, without accompanying guides, and I realize that a foul tip must be caught be the catcher, then the OP isn't a foul tip, but it is a foul ball, caught for an out.  Instinctively, that sounds wrong to me.  But I think letter of the rule says that.

It is a foul ball gloved. It is not a foul fly which could be caught for an out. Off the bat it did not meet the definition of a fly ball. 

[The Man in Blue]

OBR 2023:

Neither does a line drive or a screamer along the ground, yet both can be caught for an out.

OBR 2023:

So we have a line drive which is a foul ball (touched a player in foul territory) and ricocheted into the air ... which means it can still be caught for an out as it has not touched the ground.

Still not a foul tip (which can only be caught by the catcher).  Still nothing under OBR to kill this ball.  We'll keep digging, Constant Reader.