NFHS coaches out of dugout (on defense)

[Tog Gee]

My understanding is that when the ball is live, only 2 base coaches for the offense may be on the field. All others (offense and defense) should be in dugouts. Is this correct?

Does this apply to all times except when time is explicitly called?

Toggy

[Mudisfun]

Yes and yes... when the ball is in play, they should be in the dugout and not on the field. If a coach steps out to signal their fielders, positions the defense and then steps back in, I don't have an issue with that. However, if they are just milling outside the dugout, then they need to go back inside. 

[The Man in Blue]

When you look at the dugout, it should NEVER look like this:

 

[BLWizzRanger]

2 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

When you look at the dugout, it should NEVER look like this:

 

Just curious, would this be an insult in Texas if true?

[The Man in Blue]

I spent all weekend constantly chasing coaches and players back into the dugout.  Texas or not, I am offended when I tell you that at the plate meeting, you nod your head and tell me "Oh yeah, we don't do that," and 30 seconds later all your monkeys are out of the cage swinging bats.  I chase them all in, and then three pitches into the game I see you and your coaching practicing synchronized SH*#ting in buckets in front of the dugout ... 

Then I have to turn into this:

 

[blue23ll]

Send one monkee home and they will figure it out!

[boyinr]

Warn, Restrict, Eject. The rulebook is your friend.  Look at it this way.  By allowing it, you are assuming the liability for their behavior,  What is it worth to YOU and your family to allow them to be there?  Your car? Your life savings? Your house?   

[maven]

I recommend caution.

Yes, that's the rule. But local customs vary, and it's quite common in kiddie ball for more coaches to be closer to the players to instruct. 

For HS ball, I enforce the rule. Beyond that, I recommend following local custom, up to the point where it becomes a distraction. Then enforce the rule equally both ways (and tell them why—enforcement may be preceded by a warning, such as "Coach, if you want to do anything other than coach your players, you'll have to do it from the dugout").

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, boyinr said:

Warn, Restrict, Eject. The rulebook is your friend.  Look at it this way.  By allowing it, you are assuming the liability for their behavior,  What is it worth to YOU and your family to allow them to be there?  Your car? Your life savings? Your house?   

For sanctioned games, yes. You are absolutely correct. 

[at this point, @maven yet again produces the appropriate advice before I can form my last paragraph and hit “post!”. See the timing this man possesses??]

The trouble is the local league / tournament series events. Some local fields may have what only can be called a dugout in name only – perhaps a bench behind the fence. While the kids should stay back there for safety, the coach does need to coach, so allowing him to stand in front of the fence, or set a bucket down in the dugout opening like a cork bottle-stop isn’t or shouldn’t cause you to upset the game’s proceedings. The “liability card” really can’t be used in the tournament events because most TDs assume the liability when they accept the enrollment fees from the teams. Sure, there are some that have adherence to “the letter of the law” of NFHS and/or OBR, but most play pretty lax on the “small details”, all to keep the coaches / parents / paying adults appeased. 

And while you might “fight the good fight”, you’re not only fighting against the coaches you see in your game, but you’re fighting against all your fellow umpires who allowed them to be out there in previous games! You’ll exhaust yourself and cause undue friction. Know when to pick your battles, limit what you can realistically limit, and manage what is “within the fence”. The last thing you want to hear, after chastising a bunch of coaches and banishing them from stepping on the field during play is, “Hey Blue, Todd (the Tournament Director) said it was alright for us to direct our players out here. Dude, you gotta lighten up.” 

[Tog Gee]

7 minutes ago, MadMax said:

For sanctioned games, yes. You are absolutely correct. 

[at this point, @maven yet again produces the appropriate advice before I can form my last paragraph and hit “post!”. See the timing this man possesses??]

And while you might “fight the good fight”, you’re not only fighting against the coaches you see in your game, but you’re fighting against all your fellow umpires who allowed them to be out there in previous games! You’ll exhaust yourself and cause undue friction. Know when to pick your battles, limit what you can realistically limit, and manage what is “within the fence”. The last thing you want to hear, after chastising a bunch of coaches and banishing them from stepping on the field during play is, “Hey Blue, Todd (the Tournament Director) said it was alright for us to direct our players out here. Dude, you gotta lighten up.” 

Yes to Maven. 

I wouldn't be an ass about it, I just don't want coaches all out on the field milling around. On the first base dugout, a coach in the opening is great for blocking foul balls from hitting the players.

[beerguy55]

19 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

When you look at the dugout, it should NEVER look like this:

 

This is almost every slow pitch league I've ever played.

[BigBlue4u]

9 hours ago, boyinr said:

Warn, Restrict, Eject. The rulebook is your friend.  Look at it this way.  By allowing it, you are assuming the liability for their behavior,  What is it worth to YOU and your family to allow them to be there?  Your car? Your life savings? Your house?   

And, as the saying goes, "If you permit it, you promote it."

[Blue 5]

Was a spectator at a 12u game. It was to the point it was becoming unbearable to watch one of the coaches operate. Saw him twice this season so far. Both times he's out of the dugout coaching the kids and clearly assisting them.
One thing that bothered me big time was his clear and obvious coaching of his batters. I wanted to bring this up and see what others say and think.
After release from the pitcher but prior to the ball in the catchers glove the coach is basically tipping pitches by saying "good eye" on many, many pitches to what appears to be the same hitters. It was a clear indicator that he was verbally assisting on marginal pitches for the batter not to swing. I saw it happening in the first game and didn't comment to anyone about it. However, parents knowing I umped, came up during the second game and affirmed my thought when they asked me if the described scenario was allowed.
I looked and really didn't have a clear answer.
But between the coach out in the field and these shenanigans, the umpire was making a pretty rough road for himself, as parents were becoming highly frustrated by the above and several other missed calls.
But anyways, two things I wanted clarification on...

1) is there a rule against verbally assisting a batter with either a tip like above or other verbal cue

and

2) the teams first baseman, on several close infield grounders was placing her foot on the orange safety bag, thus creating a blocked bag. The girls would then slow up, as not to injure or trip over the girls leg. To me a clear obstruction???
I do know they can use the orange safety bag under circumstances which would dictate that but this seemed like obstruction to me but was not called by the umpire? Leading to this question.

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[Velho]

2 hours ago, Blue 5 said:

1) is there a rule against verbally assisting a batter with either a tip like above or other verbal cue

Doing it to your own team while in a legal position (in coaches box or dugout, not getting electronic or off-field assistance)? Why would that be illegal?

Poor coaching? Sure. How is a 11/12 yr old supposed to react that quickly? Are they Aaron Judge or an Astro? (not to mention forgetting why they are playing in the first place)

Annoying? Sure sounds like it.

Illegal? - Nope

[Blue 5]

Doing it to your own team while in a legal position (in coaches box or dugout, not getting electronic or off-field assistance)? Why would that be illegal?
Poor coaching? Sure. How is a 11/12 yr old supposed to react that quickly? Are they Aaron Judge or an Astro? (not to mention forgetting why they are playing in the first place)
Annoying? Sure sounds like it.
Illegal? - Nope

If I knew the answer...I would not have asked the question.

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[Velho]

2 hours ago, Blue 5 said:

If I knew the answer...I would not have asked the question

Fair enough. Sorry if the Socratic style doesn’t work for you. The answer is “no”.

As an umpire those are the questions we have to ask ourselves. The burden is on “why is it illegal?” not “why is it legal?”.  We have to have a rule to stand on. Otherwise we’re just Making Stuff Up.

[MadMax]

On 6/2/2023 at 10:00 PM, Blue 5 said:

After release from the pitcher but prior to the ball in the catchers glove the coach is basically tipping pitches by saying "good eye" on many, many pitches to what appears to be the same hitters. It was a clear indicator that he was verbally assisting on marginal pitches for the batter not to swing.

In 46 feet, from an angle, he can pick up that the pitch is going to be marginal? And convey a buzzword (verbal cue) for his batters to identify and follow? 

Wow, this guy should be working for a MLB team. The chances of success with this are less than counting cards at casino blackjack. Counting cards isn’t illegal; it’s prohibited and shunned because it slows the games down / reduces the wagers per hand. 

Same with baseball (softball); if that coach is in fact reading pitches and coaching his batters not to swing, then it slows the game down. Illegal? No. Obnoxious? Yes. 

So how do you (we) thwart that? Throw more strikes.

[Blue 5]

I didn't mean to create a situation of questioning the question... good lord. We are losing umpires left and right and instead of picking guys up and helping then prepare for situations, I feel stupid for asking the question. No wonder why there's so much issue with umpires making questionable calls. I'm done with this and the keyboard wizards! Dueces!

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[Velho]

56 minutes ago, Blue 5 said:

I didn't mean to create a situation of questioning the question... good lord. We are losing umpires left and right and instead of picking guys up and helping then prepare for situations, I feel stupid for asking the question. No wonder why there's so much issue with umpires making questionable calls. I'm done with this and the keyboard wizards! Dueces!

Sorry you feel that way. (Genuinely. No sarcasm or malice involved - just want to be explicitly clear since tone seems to be getting lost in this thread).

Baseball umpiring is not a series of binary "yes" "no" decisions. If it were this site would just be a stack of FAQs with no discussions. Same as with anything, the way you'll improve it is to think through the logic (by doing it on your own or having someone else help).

Also, if you feel Max or I were belittling you... well, we weren't. Assume positive intent (which we've gone out of our way to do not just for your benefit but anyone else reading this thread).

Asking "why do you think that?" is not critical nor questioning the question. No different than when a coach comes to ask you if something is illegal or that a call was wrong, the first question should be "why do you think that coach?". If you just say "yes" or "no" you're not managing the game well. You're doing the coach and the game a disservice.