Time Play?

[MT73]

I am having this discussion on FB

R2 & R3

2 outs.

Slow roller to F6 who fields it to F5 for the tag.

R3 scores before R2 is tagged but before the B/R reached first base.

I say no runs score while others say it does.

‘Who is correct?

[DevildogUmp]

What is your rule basis for saying no run scores?

[MT73]

Well I assumed that since the 3rd out was recorded before the B/R reached first it would negate the run.

Am I wrong?

[noumpere]

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to
home base during a play in which the third out is made (1)
by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any
runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who
is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

[MT73]

Yes—forgive me for being dense but does this mean the run scores?

I am having a hard time seeing how the B/R can reach 1B after the 3rd out is recorded.

If I’m wrong then so be it.

[DevildogUmp]

It doesn't matter that B/R "reached" first. It matters that he/she was not the 3rd out prior to reaching 1st. That is when the run is negated.

[MT73]

Copy.

‘Time for me to eat crow.

[Senor Azul]

What might be causing some confusion is a bit of scorekeeping esoterica. For every completed plate appearance there can be only three dispositions--the batter is put out, scores a run, or is counted as left on base.

In the OP, the batter was not put out when the third out was recorded. His at-bat is notated as a fielder's choice (FC) and because he was neither retired nor scored a run he is considered to be left on base.

Of course you are right, Mr. MT73, no run scores on the play in the OP.

[maven]

1 hour ago, MT73 said:

R3 scores before R2 is tagged but before the B/R reached first base.

Count the run. The third out was not a force play or the BR prior to reaching 1B.

[Senor Azul]

According to the OP, the third out was recorded before the batter-runner reached first base.

Do you guys remember a discussion we had about advantageous fourth outs where a batter-runner fell down and was injured and never came close to making it to first safely?  In some codes it is possible to then play on the batter-runner and get an advantageous fourth out.

So the batter-runner in the OP was probably close to first when the third out was made. Do we then assume that he would have been safe at first and thus count the run? Or does it matter that he had not acquired first before the third out? 

[DevildogUmp]

@Senor Azulthe rules don't address whether or not the BR acquired 1st base prior to the third out when addressing scoring runners. The only time the rules allow us to "wipe" a run in regards to the BR is specifically spelled out as the BR being put out prior to reaching 1st base as the 3rd out. If the defense decides to make a play on a non-forced runner for the 3rd out, they are taking the risk of not making the out prior to the runner scoring and creating a time play.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2013 Wendelstedt manual (section 5.5, p. 67):

...except that a run will not be scored if a runner advances to home base on a play in which the third out (or apparent fourth out) is made...

on the batter, on the batter-runner's caught fly ball, or on a play where the batter becomes a runner and before he reaches first base.

[noumpere]

Now let's open up the discussion on whether the run can be negated if the defense gets a 4th out on BR before he reaches first (or if he never goes to first; or...)

[Guest Tomuic]

No runner can miss a base after three outs have been recorded because the inning is over. The only thing that can happen is the defense can make a fourth out appeal  for an infraction that occurred before the third out was recorded. Wendelstadt also makes it clear that a fourth out can only occur on a base that was left too soon or missed, not on a base that was not reached or gone to AFTER the third out occurs!

[Tborze]

In a 2 man crew, who is going to be watching the BR? 
 

Hint: Nobody;) 

[maven]

I don't know why this is so difficult.

The BR did not make the third out: that was R2 retired (not a force play) after R3 scored.

That's a time play. The run counts.

Some codes permit an advantageous 4th out play on the BR before he reaches 1B. In those codes, the BR would have made the 3rd out (as an advantageous 4th out replaces the 3rd out), and no run would score.

BUT THAT DID NOT HAPPEN IN THE OP, along with a million other irrelevant possibilities.

Score the run.

[Guest Tomuic]

OBR does not have  an advantageous fourth out (as mentioned earlier). Neither does NCAA (as per Randy Bruns) in a post a while back, that really only leaves  NFHS, which has not been so definitive unless someone can show a rule reference that pertains.

Again, the only fourth out (advantageous) appeal is for a missed  base or one left to soon which occurred   before the third out in the inning.

[MadMax]

14 hours ago, MT73 said:

I am having this discussion on FB

Ya know, I’m reading all of this going back… and forth… and back… and forth, and I’m once again struck by this comment, setting off this maddening discourse… 

14 hours ago, MT73 said:

I am having this discussion on FB

Nothing good can come from a “discussion” on Facebook. It will be an exercise in futility. 
Why? 
Because it lacks actual context and a real-world, real-time example. 

Let’s break down the situation and play, and then apply logical reasoning… 

- R2 & R3, 2 Outs. Slow roller to F6… 

Already, this situational set-up (“It was a dark and stormy night…”) heavily weights the following play towards a throw to 1B. I’d say 95.25% of the time, the play is a throw to 1B. What a Facebook discussion doesn’t factor in is the time aspect – that while the ball is a “slow roller” to shortstop, that BR is running at best speed* to 1B. At some point, the F6 “does the math in their head” and estimates his throw to 1B won’t get BR, and instead… throws to F5?? 

Okay, well, a F5 doesn’t normally move directly towards 3B and clamp on it, especially when there’s not a force play inbound to his base, and the ground ball goes in his general direction. Far more often than not, F5 will move in the direction of the ball. So then F6 fields this “slow roller”, decides to flip it to F5, who tags R2 as he passes by? I don’t buy it. With 2 outs, Runners typically run on (bat) contact, but even less-than-adroit runners know not to run across the face of a fielder fielding a ground ball unless forced… which he wasn’t. Why would F6 flip to F5, which is a far tougher play, rather than throw on to 1B?? Surely, if BR is a considerable distance away, F6 just throws on to 1B, which guarantees R3 doesn’t score?? 

“I dunno, Max, kids make dumb plays (decisions) all the time!” Sure they do. So do adults, I get it. The Rulebook wasn’t written to cover the .0125% aberration, it was written to cover the 99% routine, and then equip us, as umpires, to logically solve the .9875 that are outside the norm, if and when they occur. 

So once again, in the concocted Facebook play, I’d torpedo that thing by pointing out that no fielder does that – F6 flips to F5 for a tag on an un-forced runner – unless, in his estimate, he was unable to get BR before BR achieved 1B.

”Well, what if BR fell down?? Delaying or slowing his run to 1B?” Okay, well, sure, but I don’t see how a F6 doesn’t see that. Pre-pitch preparation has a F6 keyed into where he’s going to throw… fields ground ball, glances at BR, acquires target, and throws. 

So we score the run, because that play – that 0.0125% play of a tag upon an unforced runner (R2) on a 6-5 putout – is a Rulebook defined Time play. As the PU bellows, “That run scores!”, the (likely incredulous) defense would go, “Wait wait wait! That was the third out!” “Yes, but after R3 scored.” “But it was a force play!” “No it wasn’t. R2 wasn’t forced to run. Time play”. At this point, the catcher points out, “Hey, BR never touched 1B.” Indeed, he hadn’t, having tripped himself by tangling his legs with his own bat, and lying in a heap just short of the 45’ mark. 

As @noumpere points out, the defense can appeal that, and achieve that 4th Out, negating the run (R3). 

[Jimurray]

33 minutes ago, Guest Tomuic said:

OBR does not have  an advantageous fourth out (as mentioned earlier). Neither does NCAA (as per Randy Bruns) in a post a while back, that really only leaves  NFHS, which has not been so definitive unless someone can show a rule reference that pertains.

Again, the only fourth out (advantageous) appeal is for a missed  base or one left to soon which occurred   before the third out in the inning.

Refresh my senile memory. We thought NCAA allowed a fourth out on an injured B-R before 1B due to, I think, an NCAA test question in the past. Randy has since negated that interp?

[Guest Tomuic]

Yes he has, he views it the same as Wendelstadt!

[MT73]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

Ya know, I’m reading all of this going back… and forth… and back… and forth, and I’m once again struck by this comment, setting off this maddening discourse… 

Nothing good can come from a “discussion” on Facebook. It will be an exercise in futility. 
Why? 
Because it lacks actual context and a real-world, real-time example. 

Let’s break down the situation and play, and then apply logical reasoning… 

- R2 & R3, 2 Outs. Slow roller to F6… 

Already, this situational set-up (“It was a dark and stormy night…”) heavily weights the following play towards a throw to 1B. I’d say 95.25% of the time, the play is a throw to 1B. What a Facebook discussion doesn’t factor in is the time aspect – that while the ball is a “slow roller” to shortstop, that BR is running at best speed* to 1B. At some point, the F6 “does the math in their head” and estimates his throw to 1B won’t get BR, and instead… throws to F5?? 

Okay, well, a F5 doesn’t normally move directly towards 3B and clamp on it, especially when there’s not a force play inbound to his base, and the ground ball goes in his general direction. Far more often than not, F5 will move in the direction of the ball. So then F6 fields this “slow roller”, decides to flip it to F5, who tags R2 as he passes by? I don’t buy it. With 2 outs, Runners typically run on (bat) contact, but even less-than-adroit runners know not to run across the face of a fielder fielding a ground ball unless forced… which he wasn’t. Why would F6 flip to F5, which is a far tougher play, rather than throw on to 1B?? Surely, if BR is a considerable distance away, F6 just throws on to 1B, which guarantees R3 doesn’t score?? 

“I dunno, Max, kids make dumb plays (decisions) all the time!” Sure they do. So do adults, I get it. The Rulebook wasn’t written to cover the .0125% aberration, it was written to cover the 99% routine, and then equip us, as umpires, to logically solve the .9875 that are outside the norm, if and when they occur. 

So once again, in the concocted Facebook play, I’d torpedo that thing by pointing out that no fielder does that – F6 flips to F5 for a tag on an un-forced runner – unless, in his estimate, he was unable to get BR before BR achieved 1B.

”Well, what if BR fell down?? Delaying or slowing his run to 1B?” Okay, well, sure, but I don’t see how a F6 doesn’t see that. Pre-pitch preparation has a F6 keyed into where he’s going to throw… fields ground ball, glances at BR, acquires target, and throws. 

So we score the run, because that play – that 0.0125% play of a tag upon an unforced runner (R2) on a 6-5 putout – is a Rulebook defined Time play. As the PU bellows, “That run scores!”, the (likely incredulous) defense would go, “Wait wait wait! That was the third out!” “Yes, but after R3 scored.” “But it was a force play!” “No it wasn’t. R2 wasn’t forced to run. Time play”. At this point, the catcher points out, “Hey, BR never touched 1B.” Indeed, he hadn’t, having tripped himself by tangling his legs with his own bat, and lying in a heap just short of the 45’ mark. 

As @noumpere points out, the defense can appeal that, and achieve that 4th Out, negating the run (R3). 

Actually according to the FB post it did happen.

I—erroneously—said that the run did not count.

‘Then the OP edited his post that the B/R did, in fact, hit first base before the tag out of R2.

Anyway I just googled about the 4th out and my exact example popped up.

See below under non appeal play.

‘However—-I am not sure if the 4th out applies if the B/R is injured going to first base and is tagged before he reaches it.

[MadMax]

10 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Then the OP edited his post that the B/R did, in fact, hit first base

Oh great, that’s helpful. 🙄  

See, as originally stated, the timing and logic doesn’t jive. A F6 is conditioned, on 2-outs, to get the 3rd out, as conveniently as possible on a force out / play at 1B on BR. Bases loaded and flip to F5 at 3B or F4 at 2B? Sure. Especially if handling a tough grounder at an odd angle that has F6 moving towards one of those bases. But to flip to F5 for a tag (attempt) on an unforced R2? On a “slow roller”?? I don’t buy it, unless F6 concluded he would not get BR at 1B in time… 

… which coincides with jacka$$ correcting his story and stating that BR did reach 1B first. 

Score the run!

Dammit, I hate Facebook. 🤬🤨

[maven]

3 hours ago, Guest Tomuic said:

OBR does not have  an advantageous fourth out (as mentioned earlier). Neither does NCAA (as per Randy Bruns) in a post a while back, that really only leaves  NFHS, which has not been so definitive unless someone can show a rule reference that pertains.

Again, the only fourth out (advantageous) appeal is for a missed  base or one left to soon which occurred   before the third out in the inning.

This post reflects my view exactly. By rule, an advantageous 4th out is possible only on an appeal play, and, by definition, an appeal play may occur only for a missed base or failure to retouch. Thus, it should not be possible to appeal the BR at 1B for an advantageous 4th out (the BR can't have missed 1B until he has passed it). True in all codes, including FED.

And whatever email from the last millennium from FED to Carl should be ignored, as it contradicts black-letter rule. 

Always glad to hear that Wendelstedt (and Randy, FWIW) agrees with me. 🙃

[Guest Tomuic]

Even if the BR runs through and MISSES  first base ATER THE THIRD OUT IS CALLED, there is no fourth out appeal available to the defense because the inning ended BEFORE first base WAS MISSED.

[beerguy55]

On 5/13/2023 at 8:02 PM, Senor Azul said:

What might be causing some confusion is a bit of scorekeeping esoterica. For every completed plate appearance there can be only three dispositions--the batter is put out, scores a run, or is counted as left on base.

In the OP, the batter was not put out when the third out was recorded. His at-bat is notated as a fielder's choice (FC) and because he was neither retired nor scored a run he is considered to be left on base.

This also occurs on any garden-variety force play where the batter hits a grounder with two out and R1 is forced out (eg. 6-4) to end the inning.

FC to the batter and he is recorded as LOB.

The scorekeeping circumstances of the OP are no different in that regard and it changes nothing.  Batter gets FC, and is LOB.  The difference is because there was no force on the tagged runner it becomes a time play and the run scores, and the batter gets a RBI.