Injury late in game - all subs already in game

[SleptTilNoonLOL]

Team has 12 players playing a straight nine with no DH and standard re-entry rules.  In the 4th inning, HC subs for his 7-8-9 hole hitters. In the 6th inning, the #4 hitter is hit by a pitch in the hand and cannot continue. I'm pretty sure in LL the rule is for the opposing coach to pick one of the players currently not in the game to re-enter in the #4 spot. But I do not know the rule for NFHS and OBR/American Legion. I am actually surprised I dont hear of this happening more often, and ashamed that I would not know what to do if this happened in one of my games. Any thoughts?

[SleptTilNoonLOL]

19 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Yes, you should be ashamed.

No, you should

[Senor Azul]

Under high school rules (FED or NFHS) a so-called emergency substitute would be allowed to replace the injured player. It is based on FED rule 4-4-1f Note 1 and there is a case book play to illustrate:

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 4.4.1 SITUATION B:  B1 is injured (a) before reaching first on ball four, (b) sliding safely into second base or (c) while running to third base. Team A has no eligible substitutes available. RULING:  Team A can continue playing with eight players. The most recent batter not on base may serve as a courtesy runner for the injured B1 in (a) and (b) but not in (c) if he is tagged, provided he is not awarded a base. An out will be called out whenever B1’s turn is reached in the batting order. Depending on the circumstances, time is normally not called when a player is injured.

 

2019 OBR rule 7.03(b) A game shall be forfeited to the opposing team when a team is unable or refuses to place nine players on the field.

Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  If a team does not have nine eligible players remaining, the game is forfeited when the short-handed team:  (1) on defense, is on or must take the field; or (2) on offense, reaches a vacant position in the batting order.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 269, p. 174):

FED:  When no eligible substitute is available, a team may finish the game with eight players. PENALTY:  for fewer than eight players:  The short-handed team shall forfeit the game. (4-4-1f)

Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  If a player at bat (B1) must be replaced because of illness, injury, or ejection, when there is no eligible substitute, the batter is declared out. B2 is the next batter. (Website 2010, #12)

2010 Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 12: With no outs, B1 has a 2-1 count when his nose begins to bleed. He is not able to get it stopped and as a result cannot finish his at-bat. The team has no substitutes available. His coach believes that the batter next up in the order can assume his count. RULING: B2 cannot assume B1’s count. With no substitutes available, B1 is declared out and B2 will come to bat with one out. An out will be called each time that spot in the batting order comes to bat. When an eligible substitute becomes available, the team may return to playing with nine players. (4-4-1f, Note 1, Note 2) 

[The Man in Blue]

@Senor Azul ... I may be misreading your comment or the wording may be off.

The term "emergency substitute" does not appear in the rulebook.  The way I am reading it, you are saying the offense can use another otherwise ineligible player as a substitute and they can stay in the game.  That is incorrect.  If the injured player reaches base, the offense may use a previously used courtesy runner (IF your state association uses CRs) or the most recent batter not on base to complete the baserunning duties.  That player may not stay in the game as a substitute (continuing to bat, play the field, etc.).

4.4.1(f) states a game shall be forfeited when a team:

f. is unable to provide at least nine players to start the game or cannot provide eight players to finish the game; or

NOTES:

1. An out will be called each time that spot in the batting order comes to bat. If the offensive player must be substituted for after reaching base, the most recent batter not on base is allowed to run for that player.

2. A team playing with fewer than nine players may return to nine players.

 

Suggested Speed Up Rules

Courtesy Runners

5. A player may not run as a courtesy runner for the pitcher or the catcher and then be used as a substitute for another player in that half inning. If an injury, illness or ejection occurs and no other runners are available, the courtesy runner may be used as a substitute.

 

 

 

[noumpere]

12 hours ago, SleptTilNoonLOL said:

and ashamed that I would not know what to do if this happened in one of my games. Any thoughts?

You needn't be ashamed of not knowing all the rules.  When this happened to me, I would always try to look up the rule(s) myself.  For one, the rule would stick with me better than if I just asked on a forum somewhere.  For two, I'd often find something else that I didn't know.

[SleptTilNoonLOL]

So I guess in OBR it will come down to league rule, because 95% of youth leagues have re-entry which is obviously not covered in strict OBR ruleset. And god forbid a player ever goes an entire game without entering the game mom and dad will be writing a stern letter, so very often every sub will be used by the 5th or 6th inning. Unless there is a league rule the game would be forfeited by rule.

 

Which brings us to the next question, at that point if both coaches agree to continue with 8 to avoid forfeit do we open ourselves up to liability if a kid then gets hurt for not following the rules and allowing the game to continue with 8 without rulebook support. 

 

[noumpere]

18 minutes ago, SleptTilNoonLOL said:

Which brings us to the next question, at that point if both coaches agree to continue with 8 to avoid forfeit do we open ourselves up to liability if a kid then gets hurt for not following the rules and allowing the game to continue with 8 without rulebook support. 

 

Depends on your insurance.  Pretty sure that the NASO insurance used to (and may still) cover this situation; others may not.

[Mudisfun]

11 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I should be ashamed at knowing what to do in the codes I officiate? But you did say you were ashamed. Why is that?

The guy is asking a legit question looking to be better. Your snarky answer, although it lines up with my sadistic sense of humor did nothing to expand on his knowledge base... it just came across as you being snarky.

 

As for not knowing all the codes... doing a tournament yesterday that for some reason decided it wanted to play a half combination of American League (OBR) rules and merge it with HS... so 3/1 and fake to 3 is illegal, but HS reentry rules and FPSR are in effect, in addition to some other rules. 2nd inning, F1 fakes to 3rd from the rubber. My partner, a guy who does D1 down has nothing as the OHC is barking for a balk. Walked out to him, asked him if he had F1 disengaging, which he did not. His response was this is HS level, right? He forgot that we were playing some odd rules for this game... Light bulb came on, we awarded appropriately, chatted for a second with the DHC and reminded him we're playing sort of, kind of OBR and moved on. Point being, even the well educated and high level guys mess up once in a while.

Point being? Keep asking questions and stay in the rule book. That is the only way to get better and know the rules.

[Rich Ives]

In LL if there are no eligible subs the opposing coach picks who can re-enter and the game continues.

[Thunderheads]

13 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Yes, you should be ashamed.

It's in the ASK THE UMPIRE section .... at least TRY to help in some way

[Jimurray]

11 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

It's in the ASK THE UMPIRE section .... at least TRY to help in some way

My take is non umpires would "Ask the Umpire". We do have a "Rules" forum. But the guy said he was ashamed and wanted our thoughts. I posted my thought. 

[Thunderheads]

10 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

My take is non umpires would "Ask the Umpire". We do have a "Rules" forum. But the guy said he was ashamed and wanted our thoughts. I posted my thought. 

[BigBlue4u]

Don't beat yourself up!  The only reason to be ashamed is because you neglected to do any rules study. You don't seem to be the guy not to study the rules.

[MadMax]

I’m going to wade in here, asking a vital question so many questions here in “Ask an U” and war stories and situational banters lack – “What’s the context???” 

Is this particular game being played by professionals? If yes, then apply and enforce OBR (or its League-determined derivative) to the “letter of the law”; if no, then goto the next question… 

Is this (now amateur) game being documented by a nationally-accredited organization (NCAA, NAIA, MSBL, LL, American Legion, USSSA, PG, TripleCrown, etc.)? If yes, then apply and enforce the rules adopted (and published!) by and for that respective organization; if no, then goto the next question… 

Is this amateur game officially sanctioned by “the State” for High School (typically Varsity) play? If yes, then apply and enforce the NFHS rules and/or the state-specific modifications adopted in your state; if no, then goto the next question… 

Is this amateur game being played by the participants simply for the involvement and enjoyment of baseball, and/or to develop amateur skills for one of the future game-types listed above 👆🏼? If yes, then we (collectively, all the participants) should adopt an attitude and approach of “common sense and fair play” and “participation over penalty”. 
If no… then why the hell are we here??!! 

You (the OP, @SleptTilNoonLOL) mentioned that there were 12 kids, batting in a straight-nine lineup. It reads like this is an amateur game outside of a specified State-sanctioned game (HS varsity) or an accredited organization (American Legion, etc), but uses their rules as a baseline. So, what’s the purpose of this game? To foster the enjoyment of baseball, civil competition, and develop the skills to play it at other levels. Use the “tools” you have available to you as the adjudicator. As long as you are transparent and consistent in your decisions here, there shouldn’t be any problems that a solution cannot be hashed out for.

To your particular problem, I (as umpire) would have brought the two HCs together, presented the problem, and hashed out a solution right then and there; likely, it would be something like taking one of the starters, re-entering him back to his original spot in the order, and then take that sub and place him – in a super-special, this-one-time-only! – in the stead of the injured (and removed) player. Resume and complete game. Done! 

Everybody goes for ice cream. 

Why do we make this so difficult? 

[SleptTilNoonLOL]

On 7/6/2022 at 8:19 AM, MadMax said:

 

@Madmax thank you for your reply and everything you said makes sense. This did not happen to me but it almost did in an American Legion game, and despite some rookie level umpires' comments on here I did know that the book rule is a forfeit. But I also know that neither coach would want the game to end like that. 

So I guess the question that I was originally asking was (worded poorly)...in this situation (which isnt a third world hypothetical by any means) where there is a clear book rule of forfeit but common sense says to find a solution and play on.....how many here would take the common sense route, even though by disregarding the book rule it could be a bad situation if someone got hurt after I "wrongly" allowed the game to continue, and some prick lawyer wanted to come after me?

[Jimurray]

51 minutes ago, SleptTilNoonLOL said:

@Madmax thank you for your reply and everything you said makes sense. This did not happen to me but it almost did in an American Legion game, and despite some rookie level umpires' comments on here I did know that the book rule is a forfeit. But I also know that neither coach would want the game to end like that. 

So I guess the question that I was originally asking was (worded poorly)...in this situation (which isnt a third world hypothetical by any means) where there is a clear book rule of forfeit but common sense says to find a solution and play on.....how many here would take the common sense route, even though by disregarding the book rule it could be a bad situation if someone got hurt after I "wrongly" allowed the game to continue, and some prick lawyer wanted to come after me?

You should still be ashamed. You know the rule. The lawyer thing is nonsense. So ask one coach who is the sub and tell the other # infor # since you know he is good with it. Hypothetically.