Pickoff

[Guest Kevin]

Runner on 2nd base takes a lead, pitcher tries pickoff and hits runner, who slid head first back to the bag. Ball hits runner in ribs, umpire calls safe, runner then rolls off the bag in pain. Shortstop then tags runner and umpire calls runner out. Is this correct?

[Thunderheads]

If time wasn't called, yes, it's correct.  Pain doesn't mean you can vacate a base without getting time.  

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

If time wasn't called, yes, it's correct.  Pain doesn't mean you can vacate a base without getting time.  

I completely follow and curious, for you, does age or competitive vs recreation level come into play? If so, at what age?

[The Man in Blue]

If the players are over 18 (or are being paid to play), sure @Thunderheads is technically correct.  There is no rule accounting for suspending play due to pain, injury, or death. 

If the players are under 18, player wellbeing and safety is the utmost priority.  You are an adult and they are children.  Kill the play and allow the player to be tended to.  

[ErichKeane]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

If the players are over 18 (or are being paid to play), sure @Thunderheads is technically correct.  There is no rule accounting for suspending play due to pain, injury, or death. 

If the players are under 18, player wellbeing and safety is the utmost priority.  You are an adult and they are children.  Kill the play and allow the player to be tended to.  

Exactly this.  With younger kids (IMO, 18 is perhaps too old to be the line, but there IS a maturity age at play here) if I see some level of 'hurt enough to give up on the play' by a runner, I'll kill the play.

[Guest Kevin]

It was 12U baseball. What if the player is knocked unconscious, are you stating that the player must call for time not the umpire who sees a kid injured?

[ErichKeane]

5 minutes ago, Guest Kevin said:

It was 12U baseball. What if the player is knocked unconscious, are you stating that the player must call for time not the umpire who sees a kid injured?

Unconscious?  Thanks to my state's concussion protocols, I would blow that dead immediately I believe.

[Velho]

10 minutes ago, Guest Kevin said:

It was 12U baseball. What if the player is knocked unconscious, are you stating that the player must call for time not the umpire who sees a kid injured?

These are always going to be HTBT but I think there is a sliding scale for age/competition level.

Knocked out 12U is a stoppage every time.

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Guest Kevin said:

It was 12U baseball. What if the player is knocked unconscious, are you stating that the player must call for time not the umpire who sees a kid injured?

No, we’re not heartless nor inhumane. 

1 hour ago, Velho said:

I think there is a sliding scale for age/competition level.

There is. Even professional baseball has an unwritten provision, established by Harry Wendelstedt – “Common Sense and Fair Play”. Even in a professional game, if a play imperils the life or health of a player, the umpires are given the latitude to call Time and immediately get the player attended to. Think: come-backer to a pitcher’s face. 

If they have this provision and latitude in the professional game, it goes without saying they’ll have it in the amateur game. 

[Velho]

14 minutes ago, MadMax said:

No, we’re not heartless nor inhumane. 

Grandparent comments to the contrary 😂

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, Guest Kevin said:

It was 12U baseball. What if the player is knocked unconscious, are you stating that the player must call for time not the umpire who sees a kid injured?

He should be ejected for intentionally damaging the baseball.

[Thunderheads]

15 hours ago, Guest Kevin said:

It was 12U baseball. What if the player is knocked unconscious, are you stating that the player must call for time not the umpire who sees a kid injured?

No, ... I didn't say that.  The rest of the guys have filled in the detail that you need here.

[Thunderheads]

17 hours ago, Velho said:

I completely follow and curious, for you, does age or competitive vs recreation level come into play? If so, at what age?

Of course, ...my comment was used with a broad brush stroke.  For me, it would be more of a 'case by case' basis really .....     It happened to me a week or so ago at the district tournament where a kid got hit w/ a thrown ball because a teammate cut in front of him covering second, then pulled his mitt away and the ball hit him in the collarbone.   Play eased, and I called time.    So, it has to be situational  

 

[Guest Mdiwest]

Not all umpires respect what seems like an obvious kill-the-play at younger levels.

3 years ago, my son's 11U team on defense, F1 pitches with 2 on and batter hits a comebacker that hits the pitcher in the eye.  IMMEDIATELY drops the pitcher to the ground unconscious, broken orbital eye socket, some fans saw the blood flying.  Literal screaming, F1's parents and other parents who were medical folks/first responders (from both teams) rush for the field, offensive team / runners saw it and just stopped in the basepaths.  The umpires' response?  "STILL LIVE! STILL LIVE!" and telling the runners to continue.  Literally everyone else, including the coaches and team on offense was worried about the unconscious, bleeding pitcher.

After I called 911, I heard the coach ask the umpires what they were thinking?  "Rule book says ball is still live until play is over."  I get the rulebook, but yikes.  The batter felt horrible, and was crying after hitting an inside-the-park home run to the pitcher.

Following the event, the coaches agreed to call the game as no one particularly felt like continuing play after that sight.  Thank you to those umpires who would call this one dead in the moment.

[ErichKeane]

3 minutes ago, Guest Mdiwest said:

Not all umpires respect what seems like an obvious kill-the-play at younger levels.

3 years ago, my son's 11U team on defense, F1 pitches with 2 on and batter hits a comebacker that hits the pitcher in the eye.  IMMEDIATELY drops the pitcher to the ground unconscious, broken orbital eye socket, some fans saw the blood flying.  Literal screaming, F1's parents and other parents who were medical folks/first responders (from both teams) rush for the field, offensive team / runners saw it and just stopped in the basepaths.  The umpires' response?  "STILL LIVE! STILL LIVE!" and telling the runners to continue.  Literally everyone else, including the coaches and team on offense was worried about the unconscious, bleeding pitcher.

After I called 911, I heard the coach ask the umpires what they were thinking?  "Rule book says ball is still live until play is over."  I get the rulebook, but yikes.  The batter felt horrible, and was crying after hitting an inside-the-park home run to the pitcher.

Following the event, the coaches agreed to call the game as no one particularly felt like continuing play after that sight.  Thank you to those umpires who would call this one dead in the moment.

Ouch, that is horrifying  

Frankly, in that case, if OTHERS all think baseball is unimportant at that point, what the umpire says is irrelevant.  That said, as an Ump with the younger kids (in particular), I use my on-field authority for the purpose of safety at the expense of the game sometimes, and wouldn't change it. 

For example: Last week at a 10U game, lower tier of rec ball.  2 on, ball hit to the 2B, who tried to throw home (or 3rd?  I couldn't tell...), and missed by about 30 feet, and went around/behind the on deck batter, who was gleefully swinging away on his practice swings.  Pitcher starts going after the ball, probably 2 seconds from getting 'too close' to the on deck batter.  

I screamed, "STOP, STOP Swinging, Dead ball, STOP STOP Swinging NOW!".  Fortunately, everyone froze including on deck batter.  OHC came out of the dugout and asked what was wrong, and why I was yelling at his player   I explained to both coaches that no one was in trouble, and they both were glad/thanked me for doing so.  I don't think anyone even really cared where the runners ended up, but it gave me quite the shock at the time!

 

Long story to really mean: There are three priorities in a baseball game, in order: 1- Safety, 2- Sportsmanship/Fun, 3- The game.  Anyone who won't forgive you for sacrificing the game for one of the other two doesn't deserve to be on the field.

[Thunderheads]

22 minutes ago, Guest Mdiwest said:

Not all umpires respect what seems like an obvious kill-the-play at younger levels.

3 years ago, my son's 11U team on defense, F1 pitches with 2 on and batter hits a comebacker that hits the pitcher in the eye.  IMMEDIATELY drops the pitcher to the ground unconscious, broken orbital eye socket, some fans saw the blood flying.  Literal screaming, F1's parents and other parents who were medical folks/first responders (from both teams) rush for the field, offensive team / runners saw it and just stopped in the basepaths.  The umpires' response?  "STILL LIVE! STILL LIVE!" and telling the runners to continue.  Literally everyone else, including the coaches and team on offense was worried about the unconscious, bleeding pitcher.

After I called 911, I heard the coach ask the umpires what they were thinking?  "Rule book says ball is still live until play is over."  I get the rulebook, but yikes.  The batter felt horrible, and was crying after hitting an inside-the-park home run to the pitcher.

Following the event, the coaches agreed to call the game as no one particularly felt like continuing play after that sight.  Thank you to those umpires who would call this one dead in the moment.

FOR SURE ... kill that as soon as you can - place runners maybe ONE base after the fact, but kill that!!!  You see (and this is MY BIGGEST ISSUE about being an umpire), umpires that do crap like this in this situation give the guys who care, and do a good job and work on their craft, a bad name, and then it just perpetuates!  Shame.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, Guest Mdiwest said:

Not all umpires respect what seems like an obvious kill-the-play at younger levels.

3 years ago, my son's 11U team on defense, F1 pitches with 2 on and batter hits a comebacker that hits the pitcher in the eye.  IMMEDIATELY drops the pitcher to the ground unconscious, broken orbital eye socket, some fans saw the blood flying.  Literal screaming, F1's parents and other parents who were medical folks/first responders (from both teams) rush for the field, offensive team / runners saw it and just stopped in the basepaths.  The umpires' response?  "STILL LIVE! STILL LIVE!" and telling the runners to continue.  Literally everyone else, including the coaches and team on offense was worried about the unconscious, bleeding pitcher.

After I called 911, I heard the coach ask the umpires what they were thinking?  "Rule book says ball is still live until play is over."  I get the rulebook, but yikes.  The batter felt horrible, and was crying after hitting an inside-the-park home run to the pitcher.

Following the event, the coaches agreed to call the game as no one particularly felt like continuing play after that sight.  Thank you to those umpires who would call this one dead in the moment.

Thankfully, at least in my experience, this is not only an exception...I'd say umps like this are so rare I'd call this an abnormality.  He doesn't even qualify to be an exception.  He's a defect. If anything I've seen umps that are more apt to stop a play a bit too soon...which is fine at this level.

As the offensive coach, I'm saying "F U" to the ump and telling my players to stop at the next base (AT MOST).   No coach with any integrity, especially at this level, should have let the kids keep running...no player on my team would be crying after hitting a home run off the pitcher's face...he'd be crying at first base, with his parents consoling him then and there...live play be damned.

As the defensive coach I'm saying "F U" to the ump and tending to my player...then I'm leaving...then I'm filing a formal complaint.

[BLarson]

I do a lot of youth baseball.   If a ball that is hit in play or thrown by a player that hits a kid on offense or defense and obviously in pain I kill it as soon as I can.

When kids are hit by the ball during a pick off by pitcher and catcher you can usually tell if the kid is hurt or not and I call time immediately to make sure they are ok.

I also had a pitcher take a line drive to the eye/face...none of us could run fast enough to the mound to assist him.   I will never forget the sound that it made.

[beerguy55]

26 minutes ago, BLarson said:

I will never forget the sound that it made.

 Like hitting a watermelon with a sledgehammer.  The pitcher on my men's league team took one right in the face - literally pulverized both cheekbones, broke jaw, lost all teeth...had to get prosthetic cheeks.   The batter was the first person to his aid.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, BLarson said:

I do a lot of youth baseball.   If a ball that is hit in play or thrown by a player that hits a kid on offense or defense and obviously in pain I kill it as soon as I can.

 

100%  Real example that comes to mind was a pitcher takes a good one off the shin (but not a break or anything). I started quickly walking to the mound shooting daggers at 1B OC to signal you're stopping right there.

[BDad]

Agreeing with calling Time when necessary in youth ball. LL Rule 5.10 is helpful here. From the 2022 RIM --

So 5.10(c) says call time when an accident incapacitates a player; decide what would have occurred and place the runners later. 5.10(h) reinforces this by saying 5.10(c) is a valid exception for calling Time while a play is in progress.

[beerguy55]

On 6/13/2022 at 1:36 PM, The Man in Blue said:

 There is no rule accounting for suspending play due to pain, injury, or death.

I'm pretty sure if you died while rounding the bases you could be called out for abandonment.

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm pretty sure if you died while rounding the bases you could be called out for abandonment.

Coach: That's not a balk!  He didn't lift his leg and stop!  He was going to the plate but he was just moving REALLY SLOW.

[flyingron]

On 6/15/2022 at 10:55 AM, beerguy55 said:

I'm pretty sure if you died while rounding the bases you could be called out for abandonment.

If the ball kills the runner, is it dead?