Us giving us a bad name ....

[Thunderheads]

Yep, the title is correct.  Us (umpires), giving us (umpires) a bad name!

So, Monday night between innings (I'm on the plate) the first base coach goes walking towards his dugout, stops at the mound and grabs the ball and hands it to his pitcher as he approaches the mound.

I'm standing just up 3rd base line, and the coach kind of veers my way (we are familiar with each other).  He says to me:
"last game I did that, the umpire told me to be careful because technically I could charge you for a conference" ...  I just looked at him is total disbelief!  I said "you've got to be friggin' kidding me?!  That's the kind of SH*# that gives us all a bad name!"   He said; "I know, I didn't think it was right, but I just said ok, and walked away"

There's a lot of things I love about umpiring, but ... THIS kind of stuff is what really drives me away from it.  To think there are others (members of the brotherhood) doing crap like this on fields all over the place?  Maddening. 

[ArchAngel72]

Ugh..

 

At my level LL and whatever I do not care if a coach at the beginning of the inning helps the kid fill in holes or what ever it takes to make sure that the mound is sound for his Pitcher..  to me that speeds up getting the pitcher throwing.  Not to mention down here in the weeds a lot of pitchers need that help to throw strikes..    Sigh

just let it go...    

[Velho]

33 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

So, Monday night between innings (I'm on the plate) the first base coach goes walking towards his dugout, stops at the mound and grabs the ball and hands it to his pitcher as he approaches the mound.

Just hands it to him in passing? Like @ArchAngel72 I do LL and when coaches stop and talk to the pitcher for a moment I don't charge a conference but, if I'm feeling like it at the time, will give a friendly heads up that there are those @Thunderheads mentioned that may charge them a conference.

[Thunderheads]

1 minute ago, Velho said:

Just hands it to him in passing? Like @ArchAngel72 I do LL and when coaches stop and talk to the pitcher for a moment I don't charge a conference but, if I'm feeling like it at the time, will give a friendly heads up that there are those @Thunderheads mentioned that may charge them a conference.

IF .... and ONLY IF ......the coach is out there wasting time from them getting going and delaying the start of the next inning should anything ever be said.

[ArchAngel72]

1 minute ago, Velho said:

Just hands it to him in passing? Like @ArchAngel72 I do LL and when coaches stop and talk to the pitcher for a moment I don't charge a conference but, if I'm feeling like it at the time, will give a friendly heads up that there are those @Thunderheads mentioned that may charge them a conference.

I get that but to me a visit should be a "tactics" thing.  If its here's the ball or lets fix these holes, or just a pump the kid up and give him a pointer or two at the beginning of the half inning when they walk out to me.  That I do not feel is a true "conference"

Specifically during warm ups.

 

Now fast fwd to near playoffs   OK I will tell the coach if you cross the line come playoffs we are now not in a part of education this to me is now rubber meeting the road. Time to tighten it up. And they will be charged a conference..  Early part of the season meh.. lets get them playing...

 

 

[Velho]

3 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

IF .... and ONLY IF ......the coach is out there wasting time from them getting going and delaying the start of the next inning should anything ever be said.

To be clear, I'm letting them know some (not me) will charge them. As a coach I'd contemplate if stopping vs continuous movement is worth it. Similar to turning left without intent to 2B after crossing 1st. You're technically right but good luck with arguing against it once your batter-runner does it and gets called out. Or similar to F4 picking up the ball and standing on the rubber but NOT throwing a pitch before tossing ball to F1. I let them know that's a bad idea too, even though legal. Why tempt fate?

1 minute ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I get that but to me a visit should be a "tactics" thing.  If its here's the ball or lets fix these holes, or just a pump the kid up and give him a pointer or two at the beginning of the half inning when they walk out to me.  That I do not feel is a true "conference"

Now this can get into a different discussion. I don't think it matters if they discuss the game tactics or wedding planning. If they delay the game (such that I can't make up by reducing 1-2 warm up pitches) and it's not a child management issue, we may need to call it a conference.

1 minute ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Now fast fwd to near playoffs   OK I will tell the coach if you cross the line come playoffs we are now not in a part of education this to me is now rubber meeting the road. Time to tighten it up. And they will be charged a conference..  Early part of the season meh.. lets get them playing...

Playoffs are why I say it. I don't think there is a good time to shift. IMO, the earlier they hear it the better (and I'm not delaying the game or making a production of it when I give a friendly heads up). I have no idea if they will have umping that tightens this up the rest of the year.

[ATXBlue]

For me, as long as the coach is not delaying the game or keeping his pitcher from warming up I am all good. I am also giving a warning before I charge with a conference and it isn't, "you know I could charge you for a conference for doing that" it would be more like, "Hey (Coach's name), I'm fine with you talking to your pitcher between innings but if you delay the game again I'm going to have to charge you with a conference." 

[Catch18]

Totally agree, Thunderheads. There’s times I’m bad, and unfortunately contribute to the cause. Strike zone is off, missed a rule, could’ve handled a coach/situation better, etc.

Everyone, everywhere, can get better. It helps us all.

[Thunderheads]

4 minutes ago, Catch18 said:

Totally agree, Thunderheads. There’s times I’m bad, and unfortunately contribute to the cause. Strike zone is off, missed a rule, could’ve handled a coach/situation better, etc.

Everyone, everywhere, can get better. It helps us all.

But it's not that.  We all make mistakes and that's fine, ...it's the OOO (over officious official) stuff that really puts a damper on everything we try to do right!

[blue23ll]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

But it's not that.  We all make mistakes and that's fine, ...it's the OOO (over officious official) stuff that really puts a damper on everything we try to do right!

You forget, the OOO's don't ever make mistakes.

[ArchAngel72]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

But it's not that.  We all make mistakes and that's fine, ...it's the OOO (over officious official) stuff that really puts a damper on everything we try to do right!

 

Yeah I get crapped on all the time when I will not let a coach warm up a pitcher

 

however my lawyer wife will tell me OH HELL NO DO NOT DO THAT!

why because if that coach catches a bouncer that makes him swallow his teeth

well then its our house we lose when he sues me for allowing his dumb butt to do something LL expressly does not allow.

there are some things OOO  that need to be done due to litigious times.

 

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

Yeah I get crapped on all the time when I will not let a coach warm up a player

 

however my lawyer wife will tell me OH HELL NO DO NOT DO THAT!

why because if that coach catches a bouncer that makes him swallow his teeth

well then its our house we lose when he sues me for allowing his dumb butt to do something LL expressly does not allow.

there are some things OOO  that need to be done due to litigious times.

 

Where does LL say a coach can not warm up a player?

[ArchAngel72]

2 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Where does LL say a coach can not warm up a player?

Regulations XIV - Field Decorum

 

Section F.  Managers and coaches shall not warm up pitchers

 

 

You ever seen it done at regionals or above?  NOPE  it is expressly not allowed due to insurance reasons.

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Regulations XIV - Field Decorum

 

Section F.  Managers and coaches shall not warm up pitchers

 

 

You ever seen it done at regionals or above?  NOPE  it is expressly not allowed due to insurance reasons.

I see that a coach can not warm up a pitcher. I also see OOO umps who translate that into a coach can not warm up a player.

[ArchAngel72]

Just now, Jimurray said:

I see that a coach can not warm up a pitcher. I also see OOO umps who translate that into a coach can not warm up a player.

Yea I typed player and meant pitcher

I have no issue with a coach pre game playing toss with players or hitting infield or etc.

 

But they are not going out to play catch in-between innings with the outfielder..

 

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Yea I typed player and meant pitcher

I have no issue with a coach pre game playing toss with players or hitting infield or etc.

 

But they are not going out to play catch in-between innings with the outfielder..

 

I don't think there is a rule that would prevent that but LL wants player participation so subs should be doing that. While it's possible the coach pitcher warm up prohibition was safety related I've also heard that it is more derived from LL wanting players to be developed and would rather have the coach send out a sub.

[ArchAngel72]

2 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I don't think there is a rule that would prevent that but LL wants player participation so subs should be doing that. While it's possible the coach pitcher warm up prohibition was safety related I've also heard that it is more derived from LL wanting players to be developed and would rather have the coach send out a sub.

I do not think there is a rule against it either but Yes LL wants the subs to do that.  I am willing to bet if it started happening there would the next year be a rule against it.

 

[BDad]

In LL Rule 3.09 also says "Managers or coaches must not warm up a pitcher..." Interestingly, there's a proposed change on the 2022 LL Congress agenda to change this rule so that managers or coaches "are permitted to" warm up a pitcher. Rationale is to improve pace of play.

[Velho]

8 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

it's the OOO (over officious official) stuff that really puts a damper on everything we try to do right!

C'mon @Thunderheads, you're talking this is a game!  

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, BDad said:

In LL Rule 3.09 also says "Managers or coaches must not warm up a pitcher..." Interestingly, there's a proposed change on the 2022 LL Congress agenda to change this rule so that managers or coaches "are permitted to" warm up a pitcher. Rationale is to improve pace of play.

Long overdue. 

[Jimurray]

12 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Long overdue. 

That would be because at many LL levels anybody on the bench would be in danger if they sent them out to warm up a pitcher. While LL wants player involvement and development you can only go so far. And @ArchAngel72might have to allow it as most of do when we realize the team has no one capable of receiving as a warmup and we would like to keep the pitcher warm. Leaning toward OOO in my opinion of @archangel liability not being an issue if the poor sub you required to warm up didn’t have a clue and got hurt. 

[ArchAngel72]

9 hours ago, Jimurray said:

That would be because at many LL levels anybody on the bench would be in danger if they sent them out to warm up a pitcher. While LL wants player involvement and development you can only go so far. And @ArchAngel72might have to allow it as most of do when we realize the team has no one capable of receiving as a warmup and we would like to keep the pitcher warm. Leaning toward OOO in my opinion of @archangel liability not being an issue if the poor sub you required to warm up didn’t have a clue and got hurt. 

 

What has been told to me by instructors and the District Mgr as well as town league Mgrs is that LL has insurance to cover kids if they get injured so yes Subs are covered. Coaches and etc are not.

 

So in that theory based on the fact that LL has a rule specifically in the rule book pointing out Mgr and assistants are not allowed to warm up the pitcher. Yeah I would be held liable if something bad were to happen and said coach ate a skipper off the plate.  The town league and etc could easily place the blame on me as I allowed it to happen. 

So yeah until the rule is removed and or changed. This is how I will be OOO about it and IDGAF what anyone else feels about it because it would be me and my wife sleeping under the bridge not you.

So yeah I cover my arse.

 

[Jay R.]

At the risk of further deviating from the main thread:

Having cut my teeth as an umpire in LL before umping in other leagues and coaching in non-LL baseball, there's a lot that LL umpires have to do as representatives of the LL chapter and thus LLI that umpires in other leagues don't. Some of that would certainly be officious officiating in other situations (no adults warming up pitchers, other safety rules in warmups), but I was expressly told by my LL umpire coordinators as well as other league officials to enforce that little stuff for insurance purposes, since LL sees the umpire (or the adult game coordinator, if the umpire is a minor) as the league official as well as the on-field official. 

[Vegas_Ump]

On 5/5/2022 at 7:09 AM, Thunderheads said:

IF .... and ONLY IF ......the coach is out there wasting time from them getting going and delaying the start of the next inning should anything ever be said.

Bullseye!  If they are having an elongated prayer meeting at the mound, they are cutting into the number of warmups they get, i.e., the one minute between innings clock is still running!

Mike

Las Vegas

[MadMax]

On 5/5/2022 at 9:59 AM, Thunderheads said:

.it's the OOO (over officious official) stuff that really puts a damper on everything we try to do right!

You know where this comes from?? 

... 

Yup, I fully realize I'm stepping out, right into traffic, and may catch the full ire of a none-so-insignificant portion of our membership... 

... 

but I'll say it, because it needs to be said. 
Where this attitude comes from?

... 

College umpires. Especially the guys that conduct Zoom meetings and prodigiously use the phrase, "You gotta get this / that." And, in maddening fashion, they'll show you / us about twenty video clips of their POE play occurring, and each time reinforcing, irrespective of whether or not the crew (at that time, in that game) actually called it, "You've got to get this. Take care of business." And it always is something like "bench jockeying" or coach conferences or check swings or any other petty little detail that, really, in the grand scheme of things, has little to no bearing on the game, and does nothing more than just frustrate and embroil the participants against us. 

It's like that one NFHS question that starts out, "The PU arrives at the ball field and notices the visiting team warming up with wrist card readers on their belts... " 

It's the College umpires that are the source of this, and then it precipitates down into the rest of amateur ball in that phenomenon I've called (before) "Viral Umpiring". Because, of course, when you (as an umpire) work with a college guy, they're never wrong.