Banger at first

[mac266]

NFHS, varsity scrimmage.

No one on; I was in position A.  The batter hit a grounder to the short stop.  I moved into position to make the call, observed the throw, and realized this one is going to be *close*.  The 1st baseman knew it too, and stretched out super far, almost doing the splits.

I had the ball hitting the glove a millisecond before the batter-runner's foot hit the bag, and a millisecond before the baseman's foot came off the bag.  The baseman fell over, laid out on the ground, with his foot at least 8 inches off the bag.  BUT, like I said, I had the ball hitting the glove BEFORE his foot came off.  He maintained control of the ball and didn't bobble it.

I pointed at the bag and yelled, "He held!  OUT!" while following up with the out mechanic. 

The base coach disagreed with me, but he wasn't vocal.  In fact, he didn't even address me; he just looked across the field at his head coach and gave the "he's off the bag" mechanic that we would use.  No one asked me to get any help, so I didn't.  I would have had they done so; this one was close.  I'm about 90% certain I had all the events in the correct order -- ball to glove, runner's foot hitting the bag, baseman's foot falling off. 

An inning later, the base coach, who knew the first baseman, said something to the baseman about it.  The baseman told him, "No, coach, my foot was on when the ball got there."  I don't know if he was telling the truth or not, but an inning later he knows I'm not changing the call.  I'm pretty sure I got it right.

Since this was a scrimmage to open the season, we had about 6 umpires there; we were rotating in and out so we all got some repetitions in.  Later, one of the other guys told me he would have called the batter-runner safe "just from the optics."  When he hit the ground, his foot was clearly off the bag.  But he doesn't have to keep his foot there; he just has to have the ball while his foot is touching the bag.  The rule doesn't say it has to be in contact for a certain amount of time.  I'm reasonably confident that he was out, so I called him out. 

What do you guys think?  "Manage" the game on optics, or call it the way you think it happened?

[Scissors]

Where in the rulebook does it say the runner is safe if the baseman falls off after the throw beats him on a force play? Where in the rulebook does it say we should ball a pitch in the strike zone because the catcher didn't receive it "correctly"? Call the rulebook.

[SH0102]

28 minutes ago, mac266 said:

NFHS, varsity scrimmage.

No one on; I was in position A.  The batter hit a grounder to the short stop.  I moved into position to make the call, observed the throw, and realized this one is going to be *close*.  The 1st baseman knew it too, and stretched out super far, almost doing the splits.

I had the ball hitting the glove a millisecond before the batter-runner's foot hit the bag, and a millisecond before the baseman's foot came off the bag.  The baseman fell over, laid out on the ground, with his foot at least 8 inches off the bag.  BUT, like I said, I had the ball hitting the glove BEFORE his foot came off.  He maintained control of the ball and didn't bobble it.

I pointed at the bag and yelled, "He held!  OUT!" while following up with the out mechanic. 

The base coach disagreed with me, but he wasn't vocal.  In fact, he didn't even address me; he just looked across the field at his head coach and gave the "he's off the bag" mechanic that we would use.  No one asked me to get any help, so I didn't.  I would have had they done so; this one was close.  I'm about 90% certain I had all the events in the correct order -- ball to glove, runner's foot hitting the bag, baseman's foot falling off. 

An inning later, the base coach, who knew the first baseman, said something to the baseman about it.  The baseman told him, "No, coach, my foot was on when the ball got there."  I don't know if he was telling the truth or not, but an inning later he knows I'm not changing the call.  I'm pretty sure I got it right.

Since this was a scrimmage to open the season, we had about 6 umpires there; we were rotating in and out so we all got some repetitions in.  Later, one of the other guys told me he would have called the batter-runner safe "just from the optics."  When he hit the ground, his foot was clearly off the bag.  But he doesn't have to keep his foot there; he just has to have the ball while his foot is touching the bag.  The rule doesn't say it has to be in contact for a certain amount of time.  I'm reasonably confident that he was out, so I called him out. 

What do you guys think?  "Manage" the game on optics, or call it the way you think it happened?

That’s what we need, umpires who make wrong calls on purpose bc the “optics” make it an easier call (rolling my eyes)

Two things to keep in mind, and #1 made me a MUCH better base umpire.

1) The rulebook says the runner must beat the ball to be safe, not even the infamously impossible “tie” would be safe.  If you had ball first, then it wasn’t even a “tie” , so good call; and you had even more time and still an out.

2) You hear at a very small fraction of what you see due to speed of sound vs light.  So if your ears heard ball before eyes saw off the bag, again, easily the correct call bc the sound is slower than the sight

Long story short, sounds like (no pun intended) you nailed it

[Velho]

As the above have said, don't let the potential reaction of a call influence the call.

Great job @mac266 , keep it up.

[Replacematt]

54 minutes ago, mac266 said:

NFHS, varsity scrimmage.

No one on; I was in position A.  The batter hit a grounder to the short stop.  I moved into position to make the call, observed the throw, and realized this one is going to be *close*.  The 1st baseman knew it too, and stretched out super far, almost doing the splits.

I had the ball hitting the glove a millisecond before the batter-runner's foot hit the bag, and a millisecond before the baseman's foot came off the bag.  The baseman fell over, laid out on the ground, with his foot at least 8 inches off the bag.  BUT, like I said, I had the ball hitting the glove BEFORE his foot came off.  He maintained control of the ball and didn't bobble it.

I pointed at the bag and yelled, "He held!  OUT!" while following up with the out mechanic. 

The base coach disagreed with me, but he wasn't vocal.  In fact, he didn't even address me; he just looked across the field at his head coach and gave the "he's off the bag" mechanic that we would use.  No one asked me to get any help, so I didn't.  I would have had they done so; this one was close.  I'm about 90% certain I had all the events in the correct order -- ball to glove, runner's foot hitting the bag, baseman's foot falling off. 

An inning later, the base coach, who knew the first baseman, said something to the baseman about it.  The baseman told him, "No, coach, my foot was on when the ball got there."  I don't know if he was telling the truth or not, but an inning later he knows I'm not changing the call.  I'm pretty sure I got it right.

Since this was a scrimmage to open the season, we had about 6 umpires there; we were rotating in and out so we all got some repetitions in.  Later, one of the other guys told me he would have called the batter-runner safe "just from the optics."  When he hit the ground, his foot was clearly off the bag.  But he doesn't have to keep his foot there; he just has to have the ball while his foot is touching the bag.  The rule doesn't say it has to be in contact for a certain amount of time.  I'm reasonably confident that he was out, so I called him out. 

What do you guys think?  "Manage" the game on optics, or call it the way you think it happened?

Optics with regards to judgment went out the window with smartphones (or even slightly before.)

[Richvee]

I was offered this advice just a few weeks ago at an evaluation scrimmage by a D1 umpire. …
We used to umpire for the dugout.

Example. ball beats runner, misses the tag… get the out

f2 sets up inside , reaches across.. call a ball even if it got the outside corner….

optics…. We can’t do that anymore. 
 

Now , we have to umpire for the camera. Every pitch, every tag, every putout is being recorded. We can’t simply go with the”expected” call Those days are over. 
 

You had him on the bag. Doesn’t matter what it “looked like” from the dugout. He’s out. And if you we’re asked and decided to ask for help, I would need my partner to be 110% sure he pulled his foot early, and I would have to be way less than 90% sure I was right to change my call. 

[johnnyg08]

8 hours ago, mac266 said:

NFHS, varsity scrimmage.

No one on; I was in position A.  The batter hit a grounder to the short stop.  I moved into position to make the call, observed the throw, and realized this one is going to be *close*.  The 1st baseman knew it too, and stretched out super far, almost doing the splits.

I had the ball hitting the glove a millisecond before the batter-runner's foot hit the bag, and a millisecond before the baseman's foot came off the bag.  The baseman fell over, laid out on the ground, with his foot at least 8 inches off the bag.  BUT, like I said, I had the ball hitting the glove BEFORE his foot came off.  He maintained control of the ball and didn't bobble it.

I pointed at the bag and yelled, "He held!  OUT!" while following up with the out mechanic. 

The base coach disagreed with me, but he wasn't vocal.  In fact, he didn't even address me; he just looked across the field at his head coach and gave the "he's off the bag" mechanic that we would use.  No one asked me to get any help, so I didn't.  I would have had they done so; this one was close.  I'm about 90% certain I had all the events in the correct order -- ball to glove, runner's foot hitting the bag, baseman's foot falling off. 

An inning later, the base coach, who knew the first baseman, said something to the baseman about it.  The baseman told him, "No, coach, my foot was on when the ball got there."  I don't know if he was telling the truth or not, but an inning later he knows I'm not changing the call.  I'm pretty sure I got it right.

Since this was a scrimmage to open the season, we had about 6 umpires there; we were rotating in and out so we all got some repetitions in.  Later, one of the other guys told me he would have called the batter-runner safe "just from the optics."  When he hit the ground, his foot was clearly off the bag.  But he doesn't have to keep his foot there; he just has to have the ball while his foot is touching the bag.  The rule doesn't say it has to be in contact for a certain amount of time.  I'm reasonably confident that he was out, so I called him out. 

What do you guys think?  "Manage" the game on optics, or call it the way you think it happened?

Everybody in the stadium is watching the ball. We're the only ones looking at the base and listening for the ball. Base coach was fighting for his team & nothing more. 

[maven]

Were I your supervisor on this game, the primary things I'd be watching for plays in A at 1B are position and timing.

Provided you were in proper position and that you allowed your brain time to process everything you saw—which some participants read as indecision, but isn't—I'd have no problem with your call (no matter what "video review" might say). The most common error—and for HS umpires it's positively epidemic—is rushing this call.

Your account suggests that you were in proper position and looking at the base properly. You have not said anything about your timing.

The "selling" mechanic of pointing at the base, announcing that he held the base, is all fine. I prefer the out call before verbally confirming that F3 held the base, but that's mere personal preference (I like to convey the primary info first, which also helps sell the call: I'd come up from HOK while pointing, sell a BIG and LOUD out mechanic, then point again while verbalizing, "he held the base.")

For newer umpires: remember that whether he held the base is a judgment call. Coach is entitled to his own judgment (the base coach here obviously saw it differently), but we're not going to argue. Coach had him off, I had him on: fine. If that's all he says—registers that in his opinion I missed it—we're good, A2D, play on. If he wishes to draw inferences about my parentage, upbringing, general intelligence, or physical constitution out of manure, then we have a rule for that.

[mac266]

1 hour ago, maven said:

For newer umpires: remember that whether he held the base is a judgment call. Coach is entitled to his own judgment (the base coach here obviously saw it differently), but we're not going to argue. Coach had him off, I had him on: fine. If that's all he says—registers that in his opinion I missed it—we're good, A2D, play on. If he wishes to draw inferences about my parentage, upbringing, general intelligence, or physical constitution out of manure, then we have a rule for that.

Yeah, this guy was fine.  It was only a scrimmage, but even if it had been a regular game I'm sure it would have been no different.  He was pretty much asking his head coach to intervene by giving the "off the bag" mechanic to him (not to me), and he didn't even say anything.  He wasn't even animated about it.  I have no problem with how he handled it at all.

[mac266]

1 hour ago, maven said:

Provided you were in proper position and that you allowed your brain time to process everything you saw—which some participants read as indecision, but isn't—I'd have no problem with your call (no matter what "video review" might say). The most common error—and for HS umpires it's positively epidemic—is rushing this call.

Your account suggests that you were in proper position and looking at the base properly. You have not said anything about your timing.

The "selling" mechanic of pointing at the base, announcing that he held the base, is all fine. I prefer the out call before verbally confirming that F3 held the base, but that's mere personal preference (I like to convey the primary info first, which also helps sell the call: I'd come up from HOK while pointing, sell a BIG and LOUD out mechanic, then point again while verbalizing, "he held the base.")

Position:  The way we've been trained on a grounder to the infield is to take that first "read" step with our right foot, and then crossover with our left, putting our chest to the ball to read the play.  Then we cut infield and move directly towards the direction of the infielder who is going to field it.  Once the baseball touches his glove, stop moving infield, get the feet positioned to face the bag, but keep the head on the ball to observe the throw.  If it's hit to the first baseman, we're barely infield by the time this happens.  If hit to the third baseman, we're quite a bit farther.  I know some people teach, 2, 4, 6, or 8 steps depending on whether it's hit to 1st, 2nd, SS, or 3rd.  However, the "move until he touches it" method produces almost the exact same positioning and it's easier to remember when play is happening fast than worrying about counting steps.  Once the throw is made, observe its quality and adjust as needed (maybe this is going to turn into a tag play, etc.).  Then, on a good throw, get the eyes ahead of the baseball and watch 1st base while listening for the ball to hit the glove and watching for the batter-runner's foot to hit the bag. 

Timing:  After the play, move our eyes to the baseball and ensure the baseman is still holding it.  Replay it in our mind ("That was ball to glove, batter-runner's foot touching, baseman's foot coming off.  He still has the ball...he's out.").  Then make the call.

Mechanic:  This is one thing where I adjust to the assignor.  What the boss wants, the boss gets.  In my area, on an out call we give the "explanation" first ("He held [while pointing at the bag]...OUT!") versus on a safe call we make the call first and then give the explanation ("SAFE...he's off the bag! [while making the sweeping motion to indicate direction]").  On one this close, you had better believe I used my "sell it" mechanic.  Instead of the hammer fist for an out, I gave an emphatic punch. 

All that said, I'm always open to better ways of doing things.  On your mechanic suggestion, it's not what my assignor wants, so I'll keep doing it his way for now.

[SH0102]

15 minutes ago, mac266 said:

Position:  The way we've been trained on a grounder to the infield is to take that first "read" step with our right foot, and then crossover with our left, putting our chest to the ball to read the play.  Then we cut infield and move directly towards the direction of the infielder who is going to field it.  Once the baseball touches his glove, stop moving infield, get the feet positioned to face the bag, but keep the head on the ball to observe the throw.  If it's hit to the first baseman, we're barely infield by the time this happens.  If hit to the third baseman, we're quite a bit farther.  I know some people teach, 2, 4, 6, or 8 steps depending on whether it's hit to 1st, 2nd, SS, or 3rd.  However, the "move until he touches it" method produces almost the exact same positioning and it's easier to remember when play is happening fast than worrying about counting steps.  Once the throw is made, observe its quality and adjust as needed (maybe this is going to turn into a tag play, etc.).  Then, on a good throw, get the eyes ahead of the baseball and watch 1st base while listening for the ball to hit the glove and watching for the batter-runner's foot to hit the bag. 

Timing:  After the play, move our eyes to the baseball and ensure the baseman is still holding it.  Replay it in our mind ("That was ball to glove, batter-runner's foot touching, baseman's foot coming off.  He still has the ball...he's out.").  Then make the call.

Mechanic:  This is one thing where I adjust to the assignor.  What the boss wants, the boss gets.  In my area, on an out call we give the "explanation" first ("He held [while pointing at the bag]...OUT!") versus on a safe call we make the call first and then give the explanation ("SAFE...he's off the bag! [while making the sweeping motion to indicate direction]").  On one this close, you had better believe I used my "sell it" mechanic.  Instead of the hammer fist for an out, I gave an emphatic punch. 

All that said, I'm always open to better ways of doing things.  On your mechanic suggestion, it's not what my assignor wants, so I'll keep doing it his way for now.

This is almost textbook perfection, you clearly pay attention so kudos to you.  The only thing I would mention, and others may disagree, but your eyes are for making sure everyone touches the bag as they should (fielder stays on, batter hits it).  Your ears should be listening for BOTH sounds, ball in glove and foot hitting bag.  There are certain instances where this is very hard, such as 2nd baseman underhanding ball to 1B where there is no pop), but back to what I wrote earlier, the speed of light is 877,193 times faster than the speed of sound (not joking).  Keeping in mind the runner must beat the ball to be safe, not tie, if you go by when you see foot hit and when you hear ball pop, you might miss some of the closest ones.  For example, if the runner literally tied the ball being caught (I know, I know, this isn't possible, but go with it), you would see the touch of the bag much sooner than you heard the pop of the glove and call safe.  Focus on the sounds, what did I hear first?  If it glove sound, out.  If it is so fricking close you can't differentiate (the proverbial "tie"), he is out because he didn't beat it.  You hear bag "thud" first, safe.

Process the sounds, what did you hear first?  That will get you a vast majority of calls correct.  I read before that at pro school, they blindfolded umpires on calls at 1st and their accuracy went up when they could only focus on sounds (this of course assumes that F3 held the base)  I use the same principle with foul tips, HBP or foul ball when both bat and body are hit...process the sounds, what did you hear first?

But again, sounds like you nailed it, and have a good understanding of the mechanics.  Keep it up!

[mac266]

1 minute ago, SH0102 said:

This is almost textbook perfection, you clearly pay attention so kudos to you.  The only thing I would mention, and others may disagree, but your eyes are for making sure everyone touches the bag as they should (fielder stays on, batter hits it).  Your ears should be listening for BOTH sounds, ball in glove and foot hitting bag.  There are certain instances where this is very hard, such as 2nd baseman underhanding ball to 1B where there is no pop), but back to what I wrote earlier, the speed of light is 877,193 times faster than the speed of sound (not joking).  Keeping in mind the runner must beat the ball to be safe, not tie, if you go by when you see foot hit and when you hear ball pop, you might miss some of the closest ones.

Process the sounds, what did you hear first?  That will get you a vast majority of calls correct.  I read before that at pro school, they blindfolded umpires on calls at 1st and their accuracy went up when they could only focus on sounds (this of course assumes that F3 held the base)  I use the same principle with foul tips, HBP or foul ball when both bat and body are hit...process the sounds, what did you hear first?

But again, sounds like you nailed it, and have a good understanding of the mechanics.  Keep it up!

Thanks, and yes, I didn't articulate it very well.  We are taught to listen for both sounds.  I attended a clinic in Phoenix this past fall where they did the blindfolding exercise you mentioned.

[Rich Ives]

17 hours ago, SH0102 said:

 

1) The rulebook says the runner must beat the ball to be safe, not even the infamously impossible “tie” would be safe.  

The rule says the bag must be tagged BEFORE the runner touches. A tie is safe because the tag wasn't before..

"

5.09(a)(10)  A batter is out when—

After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

 "

[SH0102]

24 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

The rule says the bag must be tagged BEFORE the runner touches. A tie is safe because the tag wasn't before..

"

5.09(a)(10)  A batter is out when—

After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

 "

Quote from MLB umpire Tim McClelland:

McClelland: That is exactly right. There are no ties and there is no rule that says the tie goes to the runner. But the rule book does say that the runner must beat the ball to first base, and so if he doesn’t beat the ball, then he is out. So you have to make the decision. That’s why umpires are paid the money they are, to make the decision on if he did or if he didn’t. The only thing you can do is go by whether or not he beat the ball. If he did, then he is safe.

[BCBrad]

@mac266 , I'm going to take a slightly different approach, a more psychological one.

I always talk to younger umpires about internal integrity and being able to live with yourself.

If you call what you see then at the end of the day, you should be able to let it go and sleep at night.

However, if you make a call that is not what you saw, out of fear, expectation, intimidation or revenge, those calls always stick with you and weigh on you. Those are the ones you always want back.

I think we, as a profession, lose a lot of younger umpires because of this. Younger umpires get weighed down by the calls they made not because of what they saw, but because of what they thought people wanted. In the end, if you call games like that you are probably going to hear more crap and strife than if you just called what you saw.  In the long run, you will never win.

The kids that stay umpiring are good play callers and good game managers. The first leads into the second. If you call what you see, then you are more open to listen and explain what you have. If it was your call, once you have explained it, if necessary, you are done. Play ball.

Sometimes, I think coaches come out to see if they can smell some bullcrap; looking for any inkling that you are making a call, not out of what you saw, but what you think people want. If they smell a fresh cow patty, then you just made the game a crap show because every call is going to be questioned as smelly.

[dumbdumb]

4 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

The rule says the bag must be tagged BEFORE the runner touches. A tie is safe because the tag wasn't before..

"

5.09(a)(10)  A batter is out when—

After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

 "

6.09 the batter becomes a runner when---or 505a

6:09 (a) he hits a fair ball                           or 505a1

7.01 a runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out.     or 506a1

so runner must touch base before a tag on the base or tag on the runner.

a tie means runner did not touch the base before being tagged or touching the base

so which rule is it.

 

 

 

[Jimurray]

47 minutes ago, dumbdumb said:

6.09 the batter becomes a runner when---or 505a

6:09 (a) he hits a fair ball                           or 505a1

7.01 a runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out.     or 506a1

so runner must touch base before a tag on the base or tag on the runner.

a tie means runner did not touch the base before being tagged or touching the base

so which rule is it.

 

 

 

You would have to ask MLB why they rewrote the rule. At one point their rulebook had a forced runner safe on a tie semantically and a BR out on a tie at 1B or maybe the opposite, can't remember but @Rich Ivesmight. They changed the wording of the rule that had the runner having to touch before the tag of the base. They could have changed the other rule that had the runner safe on a tie but they did not. 

[SH0102]

Every umpire I’ve known agrees that the statement “tie goes to the runner” is false and folklore.  So not sure how a tie is safe, and MLB umpire says it isn’t, so I’ll keep using that philosophy for now

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Every umpire I’ve known agrees that the statement “tie goes to the runner” is false and folklore.  So not sure how a tie is safe, and MLB umpire says it isn’t, so I’ll keep using that philosophy for now

That MLB umpire was partially correct back when he was an umpire and the rulebook did require the runner to beat the ball, either at 1B or on a force but not both, I can't remember which. The key question is can you avoid an unlikely protest from a coach who unlikely would know the current OBR wording by correctly saying the ball beat the runner and not saying the runner didn't beat the ball. 

[Jimurray]

20 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Every umpire I’ve known agrees that the statement “tie goes to the runner” is false and folklore.  So not sure how a tie is safe, and MLB umpire says it isn’t, so I’ll keep using that philosophy for now

Regarding philosophy, this is what you would derive if you perused each codes rules. 

OBR, tie goes to runner except on tag up.
NFHS, tie goes to defense.
NCAA, tie goes to runner at 1B, tie goes to defense on force.
Real world, tie goes to umpire.

 

sphy, 

[dumbdumb]

well, i look at it this way, there were 6 ties = dead heats in horse racing in 2021 (there were a lot less in other years  prior). so, i get to pick which 6 this year will be a tie goes to the runner. will it be on the ones where the fielder bobbled the ball or double or triple pumped. i dont know. but even without parameters (just call the game) maybe there should be just 6 safes and all the rest outs. but i am sure there are more opportunities in horse racing versus the number of games i will call, so that probably means i might see one true dead heat a year, or one every 3 or 4 years, as the case may be and which way that one goes, who knows. just because i saw it as a dead heat doesn't really mean it was a dead heat since 99.999 whatever are not ties. so, since true dead heats are so very very rare, that means they are all truly one way or the other, safes or outs and not ties. so seeing a lot of ties is in a way is just not supported by the numbers. they are either out or safe, and not ties, and should be called as such, and made correctly as much as possible and missed as few as possible.

or with johnny's 63% analysis of very close calls missed or overturned every year, maybe i should just get one of those catcher score cards on my wrist and just mark close calls and stay as close as i can to that number more or less of missing 63% wrong close calls, no matter whether it was wrong as a safe call or an out call.

[Catch18]

We should get back to the OP….

Besides, I see they’re already talking about ties over here

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=48733&share_tid=62857&url=https://umpire-empire.com/index.php?/topic/62857-A-Primer%3A--Simultaneous-Tag-%26-Touch%2C-aka%2C-Does-the-tie-go-to-the-runner%3F&share_type=t&link_source=app


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rich Ives]

On 3/7/2022 at 4:10 PM, SH0102 said:

Quote from MLB umpire Tim McClelland:

McClelland: That is exactly right. There are no ties and there is no rule that says the tie goes to the runner. But the rule book does say that the runner must beat the ball to first base, and so if he doesn’t beat the ball, then he is out. So you have to make the decision. That’s why umpires are paid the money they are, to make the decision on if he did or if he didn’t. The only thing you can do is go by whether or not he beat the ball. If he did, then he is safe.

That's wrong. The ball must bat the   runner. Black and white in the rule book.

[Senor Azul]

2021 OBR 5.09(a)(10)  A batter is out when:  (10) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

5.06(a)(1)  A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.

5.09(b)(6)  Any runner is out when:  He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner…

[SH0102]

1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

That's wrong. The ball must bat the   runner. Black and white in the rule book.

Just to clarify, you’re saying an MLB umpire doesn’t know what he is talking about?

Its been known forever that the rule book has a contradiction when it comes to this topic.  But if you safe every “tie”, you’re the first umpire I’ve ever met that has that philosophy.

Ive heard 753 times that “tie does not go to the runner, that’s a backyard/sandlot urban myth”